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Posted

Hey all,

I am looking into the RAP service (remote assist program) for reflashing and programming pcms and modules and weighing my options.  We currently don't have the equipment to reflash and typically sub those jobs out to the dealer. I was wondering how do you all charge for reflash services?  I have generally seen the out the door price around $200 which would be about 2hrs bill time for us but wanted to see how that stacks up.

Also in the event there are repairs done that require the reflash are you charging the full reflash fee in addition to the parts and labor time or do you discount the reflash fee?

Thanks!

Posted

There are several ways to go. I think the RAP reflash technology is a bit young and they're having trouble with it. I got the DrewTech RAP box a while ago, and it's pretty limited on what it can do. They also bricked a PCM on a ford van. They stood behind it and bought a new PCM, but it put my customer out for a couple days waiting for the new PCM and for DrewTech to send us the Rotunda tool to program it. I'm confident they'll fix this issue, but it's not fixed yet.

You can get a Snap On j-box for reasonable money, and a cheap laptop will run it. I think my laptop still has a "Made for Windows XP" sticker on it. The real problem is that you need to figure out how many flashes you do, and what the vehicle mix is. I've found that even though we see 400+ vehicles a month, we only do about 5-6 flashes a month. Spread that among lots of makes, and 6 technicians, and none of the techs will get any good at doing any of them, resulting in spending way too much time on them. Plus it seems that the software always needs to be updated, wasting another half hour before the flash can start.

In short, it's a PITA. But, much like having an alignment rack, it's more convenience for the shop than taking (or towing) the car to another shop to get it done.

BTW, yes, we charge full boat for it no matter what else we do.

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

if a vehicle needs a reflash or a part is going to need programming and I know it is something I am unable to do I send them to the dealer. I find that being straight up with the customer they will continue to use you for all their needs.. A job lost to the dealer because it may not be cost effective to you may lead to a customer that has more confidence in your for being completely honest with them.. I tell them It is not cost or time effective for me to purchase equipment to do the flashing and as stated above some only take a one time flash screw that up and you have to buy a new module or ecm, easier to let the big guys (dealers) with the money to make those repairs. That way you aren't out money and time , the bottom line is we want to make more money than we spend in a timely manner 😉 I had a Kia forte the other day the bcm was bad (would not release the shift interlock ) I did a quick look through my scanner to see if I could do the programming , but didn't see it.. On some models you can copy the old bcm if you can communicate with it and then install the new one and program. Instead of taking any chances I told the guy the problem he was happy , been several places that installed new brake light switch , new solenoid etc. if they had just done some bidirectional communications and checked some very simple wiring (after removing the center console everything is right there including the bcm) they could of made the correct diagnosis. He paid for the diagnostic time agreed upon when he first brought the car in and said he would like to use me for his other repairs. 

Edited by skm
  • Like 1
Posted

I do mobile programming on the side for shops and small dealers.

The good thing about have some of this equipment is that it also allows you to do dealer-level diagnostics, depending on the make.

I can't think of it from the top of my head, but I have around 8 - 10 different scanners, for different makes/purposes.

Again, depending on the make, you may be limited in what you can flash.

For example, Nissan allows you to only to powertrain modules with their flashing software. On the other hand, GM allows you to reflash any module your heart desires. GM also has their dealer software (GDS2/Tech2Win) available for shops to use, with a paid subscription.

Whether it's a full reflash or just a software update, I charge a full fee. The subscriptions that I pay stay the same, so I can't discount the fee for a tiny update.

If anyone has questions or would like to get into flashing, feel free to message me.

  • Like 1
Posted

I took a class on this at Automechanika and came home all excited and ready to get a RAP Machine and get going and be able to fix a few more cars.  Sitting in class listening to Mr. Truglia I had a certain Subaru Forester in mind to reflash for a P0420 (she is ready to pay us to replace the cat).  Apparently there is often a flash for P0420's BUT there doesn't appear to be a flash available for this car.  And so now I am back on the fence wondering again if the module we need flashed very 4 months or so is enough to make it worthwhile.  We have a mobile flash person and it has been working fine that way.  THANKS for the thread = plan on watching...

Posted
1 minute ago, stvstbsvc said:

I took a class on this at Automechanika and came home all excited and ready to get a RAP Machine and get going and be able to fix a few more cars.  Sitting in class listening to Mr. Truglia I had a certain Subaru Forester in mind to reflash for a P0420 (she is ready to pay us to replace the cat).  Apparently there is often a flash for P0420's BUT there doesn't appear to be a flash available for this car.  And so now I am back on the fence wondering again if the module we need flashed very 4 months or so is enough to make it worthwhile.  We have a mobile flash person and it has been working fine that way.  THANKS for the thread = plan on watching...

what year and model is the Subaru? Engine size? I'll check my Subaru software and see if there's an update for P0420 for you.

Posted

And just to put a fork in my part of this story; Thank-you for the look-up on my customer's Subaru.  There is no reflash for a P0420 on her car and I sat in class getting all excited for nothing!!!  And now I (and my shop) are back to square one.

Posted
On 7/29/2017 at 6:38 PM, skm said:

if a vehicle needs a reflash or a part is going to need programming and I know it is something I am unable to do I send them to the dealer. I find that being straight up with the customer they will continue to use you for all their needs.. A job lost to the dealer because it may not be cost effective to you may lead to a customer that has more confidence in your for being completely honest with them.. I tell them It is not cost or time effective for me to purchase equipment to do the flashing and as stated above some only take a one time flash screw that up and you have to buy a new module or ecm, easier to let the big guys (dealers) with the money to make those repairs. That way you aren't out money and time , the bottom line is we want to make more money than we spend in a timely manner 1f609.png I had a Kia forte the other day the bcm was bad (would not release the shift interlock ) I did a quick look through my scanner to see if I could do the programming , but didn't see it.. On some models you can copy the old bcm if you can communicate with it and then install the new one and program. Instead of taking any chances I told the guy the problem he was happy , been several places that installed new brake light switch , new solenoid etc. if they had just done some bidirectional communications and checked some very simple wiring (after removing the center console everything is right there including the bcm) they could of made the correct diagnosis. He paid for the diagnostic time agreed upon when he first brought the car in and said he would like to use me for his other repairs. 

I feel there are many arguments of why IMO this is a poor long term solution. I am in the big city so unlike smaller markets where each has his niche here if given a chance, there are a lot who will take your lunch and eat it without care.

1) I wholeheartedly agree with you to be honest and up front with customers.

What happens when you send customer to dealer? Does the customer come in and request reflash? If so, what happens if it does not solve problem? Does the dealer want to diag the problem first? Is the customer prepared to pay again? Or do you not charge diag time since you cant solve problem?

Let's say dealer does diag, comes up with different outcome and it fixes the car, how does that reflect on your company?

My first solution is to sub it to the dealer. Never send a customer to another for service, they might just find that the service is better and never return. If you think the only reason they come to you is cheaper you have little to offer on that alone.

If you desire to discuss this further the second part is the technology side as well. To what level is the technical capability? HOw will it keep up if you dont learn to do what is becoming more and more run of the mill?

Posted

wheelingauto,  I have been in the business for a long time, I am not worried about losing a customer to the dealership. In fact most not all but most people don't like the dealership... Now as far as the wrong diagnosis yes that may be possible, but I am pretty good at what I do and am very certain of a diagnostics before I ever contact a customer. There is far more fear in losing customers to carp shops and street mechanics than to a dealership... As far as the technology side, I keep very up to date on things.. buying equipment and subscriptions to reflash at this time is going to be a waste of money.. Things are going telematic, so there will be no need for reflashing equipment probably sooner than you think... 

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  • Have you checked out Joe's Latest Blog?

         0 comments
      The Technician Shortage Is Our Fault, And It's Time We Own It
      Nearly every day, I hear shop owners complain: "There's a technician shortage. We can't find qualified people. There's no one out there." If that's true, then who's to blame?
      The industry? The schools? The government? I don't know how you feel, but who promised us an endless supply of qualified technicians?
      Another common complaint is that young people do not want to work in the trades. Well, if that were true, then why are other trades such as HVAC, electrical, and plumbing growing? What are they doing that the automotive industry is not? 
      Here's the reality we need to face: We do have a problem, but we shouldn't look for someone or any entity to rescue us. Not the government. Not the trade schools. Not the recruiting companies. No one owes us a workforce. If we want great people in our industry, it's up to us. At some point, we need to own up to the truth: Building a pipeline of qualified technicians is our responsibility.
      In this blog article, I will break down the key reasons we are in this situation today and what we, as an industry, can do to solve the technician shortage. Are you ready to look in the mirror?
      Have We Pushed Technicians Away?
      Let's take a look at flat-rate pay. True flat rate, which pays a technician only for the hours they produce, is a controversial pay plan that emphasizes high production levels and creates a competitive work environment that, if not properly controlled, can lead to increased mistakes and a decline in morale and team spirit. Additionally, the stress and physical demands placed on technicians as they age are not favorable to long-term employee retention. What do we do with technicians as they grow older into their fifties and begin to slow down? 
      I have heard all the arguments and pros and cons of flat-rate pay, and I am not going to judge any pay plan. Let the facts speak for themselves. True flat rate has changed in most areas around the country and has evolved into a pay plan that gives technicians some pay guarantee.
      Many shop owners have learned that team morale, along with the opportunity to earn income, is important to technicians and to the company's long-term success. But let me ask you: how many technicians have left or been pushed out over the years because of the old flat-rate pay system?
      Another issue is the workplace environment. I remember being grateful to be hired as a young technician at a local repair shop. While very thankful, the work environment was not ideal. The shop owner kept the bay doors open year-round (I am from New York) unless it rained or snowed. He felt that if the bay doors were closed, customers might think we were closed for business. We had no heat and no hot water. Many of the jobs were done outside, year-round,  in all types of weather. The starting pay was minimum wage, with no benefits, sick days, or vacation pay. 
      Now, again, I need to point out that I was truly grateful for the opportunity this shop owner gave me. I learned a lot working there, and the experience was pivotal in my career. But looking back, I wonder how many people were discouraged by these working conditions?
      While the physical demands of the repair workplace are daunting, perhaps even more critical is the culture. Too many of my generation shop owners preached the mindset of "my way or the highway." We were the business owners, after all. We started our companies, took all the risks, and provided jobs. Why shouldn't we be the ones to set the ground rules our way?   
      Many of us found over the years that the "my way or the highway" mentality was a sure way to isolate employees and make them more likely to look over the fence for greener grass. In other words, it led many technicians to seek employment elsewhere, where they felt they could be appreciated and recognized for their hard work. The issue, however, was that there wasn't much green grass around. Disappointment after disappointment, bouncing from repair to repair shop, eventually led to despair. So, I ask you: were workplace conditions a contributing factor in today's technician shortage?
      Another factor that we are all well aware of is the complexity of the modern automobile. When I started, the work was mostly physical, and you were required to master essentially three vehicle models: General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler. Let's fast-forward to today. The evolution of automotive technology, along with the extensive training and tools required, has outpaced the typical technician's pay compensation, with no clear career path. Again, leading to frustration and insecurity about the future.
      Here is the bottom line: people don't leave their job; they leave their experience. We must do a better job. 
      The News Isn't all Bad; Your Next Steps to Fix the Technician Shortage
      To fix the technician shortage, it will take a combined effort from everyone in the automotive industry, particularly automotive shop owners. Shop owners are in the perfect position to make the greatest impact, not only on their businesses but also on the future automotive workforce.
      First, shop owners must become better leaders and understand that their ultimate success is directly dependent on the people they assemble around them. Any shop owner who mistakenly believes they can build an empire solely on their abilities is destined for serious disappointment. Business owners who think like this will eventually plateau. Without the collective contributions from a team of qualified people, your business will stall; it will not continue to grow.
      Create a workplace that attracts top talent: a clean, professional, well-equipped facility designed to support productivity, teamwork, and a career, not just a job. Build a great reputation in your community by getting involved locally. Become the auto repair shop that people take notice of as "the" place to work.
      Next, shop owners must become more financially knowledgeable. Knowing your numbers and what you need to achieve for a strong bottom-line profit is essential to paying technicians the money they need and deserve. Profit will also allow you to compete with other trade industries by providing a benefits package that has real take-home value and security.
      When it comes to culture, this is where the rubber hits the road. People crave recognition, praise, and a sense of purpose. Despite what you hear, people are not just money-motivated. Once people feel secure in their financial situation, retaining and motivating technicians can only be achieved by connecting with them on an emotional level. You cannot show enough appreciation. Give out praise for a job well done as if your business depended on it, because it does.
      As technicians age, we need to have a place for them. Expecting a 58-year-old to perform like a 35-year-old is unrealistic. We need to be more focused on career pathing. Provide training, skill development, and coaching to develop leaders and mentors within our older workforce. While their bodies may have slowed, the knowledge they have gained is priceless. 
      Our future is dependent on young people entering our industry. We need to give more young people opportunities. Every shop owner across the country should consider hiring an apprentice, then build an apprentice training plan and career path for them. If every shop did this, we could solve the technician shortage within five years. Get involved with the trade schools and high schools in your area. Look into the NAPA Apprenticeship Program. Don't sit on your hands with this one. Do it today.
      Lastly, don't get left behind. Commit to ongoing training for all your employees. Keep up to date with tools and equipment tailored to your business model. Don't try to be all things to all people and all vehicles. Identify your core profile customer and the vehicles they drive, and become an expert on those vehicles and the services you offer.
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      The Automotive Repair Podcast Network: https://automotiverepairpodcastnetwork.com/ Remarkable Results Radio Podcastwith Carm Capriotto: Advancing the Aftermarket by Facilitating Wisdom Through Story Telling and Open Discussion.https://remarkableresults.biz/ Diagnosing the Aftermarket A to Zwith Matt Fanslow: From Diagnostics to Metallica and Mental Health, Matt Fanslow is Lifting the Hood on Life.https://mattfanslow.captivate.fm/ Business by the Numberswith Hunt Demarest: Understand the Numbers of Your Business with CPA Hunt Demarest.https://huntdemarest.captivate.fm/ The Auto Repair Marketing Podcastwith Kim and Brian Walker: Marketing Experts Brian & Kim Walker Work with Shop Owners to Take it to the Next Level.https://autorepairmarketing.captivate.fm/ The Weekly Blitzwith Chris Cotton: Weekly Inspiration with Business Coach Chris Cotton from AutoFix - Auto Shop Coaching.https://chriscotton.captivate.fm/ Speak Up! Effective Communicationwith Craig O'Neill: Develop Interpersonal and Professional Communication Skills when Speaking to Audiences of Any Size.https://craigoneill.captivate.fm
          Click to go to the Podcast on Remarkable Results Radio


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