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Posted

5000 miles ago we installed a used engine with 65k in a vehicle. We also installed a new timing belt and tensioner at that time. The vehicle was towed in with a no start condition. Long story short, the timing belt had jumped and bent the valves. The engine supplier is off the hook because they require installer to replace the belt. Our insurance carrier said its not covered either. My argument is that it's a loss. I have to buy a new engine, pay our tech to replace it and loss of ability to do paying work for about 18hours. I've never had an insurance claim and now that I'm asking for one I'm told it is not covered. How can insurance companies get away with this. Anyone else had an experience like this?

  • Like 1
Posted

5000 miles ago we installed a used engine with 65k in a vehicle. We also installed a new timing belt and tensioner at that time. The vehicle was towed in with a no start condition. Long story short, the timing belt had jumped and bent the valves. The engine supplier is off the hook because they require installer to replace the belt. Our insurance carrier said its not covered either. My argument is that it's a loss. I have to buy a new engine, pay our tech to replace it and loss of ability to do paying work for about 18hours. I've never had an insurance claim and now that I'm asking for one I'm told it is not covered. How can insurance companies get away with this. Anyone else had an experience like this?

I've been through similar situations but I'm very cautious in regards to used engines.

Sounds like the supplier knows how to avoid issues on their end for sure! Unfortunately it sounds like this is a genuine comeback. Be it technician mistake or new part failure, unless there's something internal that caused it. I get very nervous in regards to large ticket used items.

I've asked my insurance agent about similar situations and get the "deer in headlight look" and "no that's not covered". I'm curious if any of the other folks have any knowledge of insurance plans that covers loss type situations.

 

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Posted

My insurance doesn't pay for comebacks or technician mistakes that cause me money and work. Example: if my guy doesn't tighten a wheel and it damages the car - too bad I pay. If in the same situation the loose wheel flys off and hurts someone waiting in line for the bus then they will pay for the medical bills.

Posted

On a side note you probably won't lose too much cash, take some of the profit from the original job and put some valves in the broken engine. Have a different tech do the work. Its possible the tensioner was defective in which case the vendor might help you with a labor claim. I doubt the belt was defective. What is the vehicle?

Posted

We also installed a new timing belt and tensioner at that time.

The engine supplier is off the hook because they require installer to replace the belt.

What am I not understanding? You replaced the belt, why are they off the hook?

Posted

If we replaced it then its all on us. If we didn't as per their installation requirements it's on us. Either way they're off the hook.

Posted

Sounds like its time to find a new used parts supplier. I just got to eat an engine myself that I screwed up (very long story but it was my fault) so I know the pain. Lost all last months profit on that job...

Posted (edited)

Wow. I have never had to warranty a used engine (I know that sounds strange, keeping my fingers crossed still) but I would hope they would stand behind an engine with less then 5k on it.

 

Have you found out why the belt jumped? Once you find out then you can go to either the salvage yard or timing belt manufacture for help. I know my friends shop once had to deal with Gates over a defective waterpump that fried a timing belt.

 

I am not sure how your salvage yards are in your location, but here we always buy the "extended warranty" with used engines. They normally are 1 year warranties that supply you with a new engine and up to so many hours of labor covered up to the cost of the engine. They replace the engines/transmission for any reason, cause is not a concern. You won't make money on a reinstall, but hopefully you can atleast break even and keep a happy customer.

 

I am going to run this by my insurance agent soon to see if we would be covered under this. Like yourself, I have never had an insurance claim and it would irritate me if we had little to no coverage on something like this.

Edited by Mario
Posted

For used stuff I almost always start by contacting LQK. www.LKQonline.com They are one of the biggest suppliers of used parts in the country. They will deliver and pick up for free and if you have less than 100k on the engine it normally comes with a 12/12 warranty and of course the option of paying a little extra for the extended if you want it. They aren't always the cheapest but I have bought a bunch of stuff from them and the only time I have ever had a problem was with a VW transmission and they promptly replaced it with another one.

Posted (edited)

Yes lkq is a good company, we buy from them and always purchase the labor warranty. Usually 100-150 extra but great peace of mind for us and customer.

 

Most big yards post their inventory at car-part.com. I check there for most used parts.

Edited by Mario
Posted

So the vehicle is a 2006 Kia Sorrento suv with a 3.5 V6. After removing the timing covers to confirm the belt had jumped. The tech showed me that there is a small eccentric cam on the face of the tensioner pulley that requires a a special tool that you attach to a torque wrench and preload the tensioner pulley and then tighten fastener before releasing the holding pin from the tensioner. So it appears that the pretensioning step was not performed correctly because we didnt have the factory tool. I've never seen such a device built into a tensioner pulley. Very frustrated. Honestly it makes me not want to stick my head out by doing this kind of work.

Posted

I can't see that there's any money in a job like this for a small shop. We avoid jobs like this like the plague. Unfortunate that your techs let you down.

 

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Posted

Main street america. They are more than happy to receive our 800 dollars per month. It's a new experience for me. I've been in business for almost 6 years and have had no problems of this kind. Call me naive but i really thought all these years that insurance would protect me from situations like this. Lesson learned and will move on but will be more cautious with this kind of work.

Posted

I told them that we installed a replacement engine and that we installed a new timing belt per the sellers warranty requirements and that the belt had jumped timing but didnt mention the pretensioning step that wasn't performed. It really doesn't matter to them as they don't cover our work as i found out. They only cover Property and medical damages that result from the work. The insurance company knows how to cover themselves best.

Posted

It all depends on what your policy is. I know we are covered for this type of situation. you should sit down with your agent and talk out scenarios and review your coverage. We at one time had a policy that would pay for subsequent damage but not the original "mistake". IE if a tech left a whell loose they would not pay for lugs or the wheel however they would pay for any damage caused by the wheel falling off. It cost an extra 40 bucks a year to cover the original mistake as well. a drop in the bucket and well worth the coverage imo.

Posted

This post made me review my insurance coverage, I thank you guys. I discovered I wasn't covered for any physical damage to my dealer cars. I'm not on a floor plan meaning i own (or owe someone personally) for my inventory. One big hail storm and I stand to lose half of my net worth. I added some coverage. On a side note I am reluctant to file a claim for anything so I have a high deductible which lowers the rates.

  • Like 2
Posted

It's always best to learn from other's mistakes. What is your deductible? Mine is 500. If a covered event happens. I think I'd rather have a higher deductible and a lower rate too.

  • Like 1
Posted

#1 don't warranty used parts. have customer sign paperwork stating no warranty.

#2 I hate to say it but one must go over all contracts you sign with your attorney or expect a surprise.

#3 been there done that- I'm always happy if no one gets hurt/killed. if I can solve the problem with money then I am happy.

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

So the vehicle is a 2006 Kia Sorrento suv with a 3.5 V6. After removing the timing covers to confirm the belt had jumped. The tech showed me that there is a small eccentric cam on the face of the tensioner pulley that requires a a special tool that you attach to a torque wrench and preload the tensioner pulley and then tighten fastener before releasing the holding pin from the tensioner. So it appears that the pretensioning step was not performed correctly because we didnt have the factory tool. I've never seen such a device built into a tensioner pulley. Very frustrated. Honestly it makes me not want to stick my head out by doing this kind of work.

The rewards of doing the work is far greater than the penalties.
Posted

I must say it did feel very good to stand behind our work and happily hand the keys over to the female owner with a great running replacement engine. She was thankful that we handled it without any run around. What really felt great was being more professional than the insurance company. At least honest people with character and values can sleep at night.

Posted

Is the question about the insurance company? We had an incidence where a local shop built a driveshaft for a '66 Chevy Nova Wagon with a LS3 motor, etc. We spec'ed it out with the driveshaft company that the car will put approx. 600 hp to the wheels.

Well, they built it incorrectly with a smaller wall tube than they should have. We placed the car on the dyno for tuning.

On the first hard pull the engine twisted the driveshaft in half, taking out the motor, transmission and the entire floor pan. It was a rough day. I was sure I would pay for this out of pocket until I thought to call the insurance company.

 

The insurance company, Atain Insurance through SEMA, paid for the whole thing. The new engine, transmission, new driveshaft

(not from the old driveshaft company), floor pan and installation. They even paid us to put everything back together. Didn't quibble about anything.

 

How's that for service.

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  • Have you checked out Joe's Latest Blog?

         0 comments
      The Technician Shortage Is Our Fault, And It's Time We Own It
      Nearly every day, I hear shop owners complain: "There's a technician shortage. We can't find qualified people. There's no one out there." If that's true, then who's to blame?
      The industry? The schools? The government? I don't know how you feel, but who promised us an endless supply of qualified technicians?
      Another common complaint is that young people do not want to work in the trades. Well, if that were true, then why are other trades such as HVAC, electrical, and plumbing growing? What are they doing that the automotive industry is not? 
      Here's the reality we need to face: We do have a problem, but we shouldn't look for someone or any entity to rescue us. Not the government. Not the trade schools. Not the recruiting companies. No one owes us a workforce. If we want great people in our industry, it's up to us. At some point, we need to own up to the truth: Building a pipeline of qualified technicians is our responsibility.
      In this blog article, I will break down the key reasons we are in this situation today and what we, as an industry, can do to solve the technician shortage. Are you ready to look in the mirror?
      Have We Pushed Technicians Away?
      Let's take a look at flat-rate pay. True flat rate, which pays a technician only for the hours they produce, is a controversial pay plan that emphasizes high production levels and creates a competitive work environment that, if not properly controlled, can lead to increased mistakes and a decline in morale and team spirit. Additionally, the stress and physical demands placed on technicians as they age are not favorable to long-term employee retention. What do we do with technicians as they grow older into their fifties and begin to slow down? 
      I have heard all the arguments and pros and cons of flat-rate pay, and I am not going to judge any pay plan. Let the facts speak for themselves. True flat rate has changed in most areas around the country and has evolved into a pay plan that gives technicians some pay guarantee.
      Many shop owners have learned that team morale, along with the opportunity to earn income, is important to technicians and to the company's long-term success. But let me ask you: how many technicians have left or been pushed out over the years because of the old flat-rate pay system?
      Another issue is the workplace environment. I remember being grateful to be hired as a young technician at a local repair shop. While very thankful, the work environment was not ideal. The shop owner kept the bay doors open year-round (I am from New York) unless it rained or snowed. He felt that if the bay doors were closed, customers might think we were closed for business. We had no heat and no hot water. Many of the jobs were done outside, year-round,  in all types of weather. The starting pay was minimum wage, with no benefits, sick days, or vacation pay. 
      Now, again, I need to point out that I was truly grateful for the opportunity this shop owner gave me. I learned a lot working there, and the experience was pivotal in my career. But looking back, I wonder how many people were discouraged by these working conditions?
      While the physical demands of the repair workplace are daunting, perhaps even more critical is the culture. Too many of my generation shop owners preached the mindset of "my way or the highway." We were the business owners, after all. We started our companies, took all the risks, and provided jobs. Why shouldn't we be the ones to set the ground rules our way?   
      Many of us found over the years that the "my way or the highway" mentality was a sure way to isolate employees and make them more likely to look over the fence for greener grass. In other words, it led many technicians to seek employment elsewhere, where they felt they could be appreciated and recognized for their hard work. The issue, however, was that there wasn't much green grass around. Disappointment after disappointment, bouncing from repair to repair shop, eventually led to despair. So, I ask you: were workplace conditions a contributing factor in today's technician shortage?
      Another factor that we are all well aware of is the complexity of the modern automobile. When I started, the work was mostly physical, and you were required to master essentially three vehicle models: General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler. Let's fast-forward to today. The evolution of automotive technology, along with the extensive training and tools required, has outpaced the typical technician's pay compensation, with no clear career path. Again, leading to frustration and insecurity about the future.
      Here is the bottom line: people don't leave their job; they leave their experience. We must do a better job. 
      The News Isn't all Bad; Your Next Steps to Fix the Technician Shortage
      To fix the technician shortage, it will take a combined effort from everyone in the automotive industry, particularly automotive shop owners. Shop owners are in the perfect position to make the greatest impact, not only on their businesses but also on the future automotive workforce.
      First, shop owners must become better leaders and understand that their ultimate success is directly dependent on the people they assemble around them. Any shop owner who mistakenly believes they can build an empire solely on their abilities is destined for serious disappointment. Business owners who think like this will eventually plateau. Without the collective contributions from a team of qualified people, your business will stall; it will not continue to grow.
      Create a workplace that attracts top talent: a clean, professional, well-equipped facility designed to support productivity, teamwork, and a career, not just a job. Build a great reputation in your community by getting involved locally. Become the auto repair shop that people take notice of as "the" place to work.
      Next, shop owners must become more financially knowledgeable. Knowing your numbers and what you need to achieve for a strong bottom-line profit is essential to paying technicians the money they need and deserve. Profit will also allow you to compete with other trade industries by providing a benefits package that has real take-home value and security.
      When it comes to culture, this is where the rubber hits the road. People crave recognition, praise, and a sense of purpose. Despite what you hear, people are not just money-motivated. Once people feel secure in their financial situation, retaining and motivating technicians can only be achieved by connecting with them on an emotional level. You cannot show enough appreciation. Give out praise for a job well done as if your business depended on it, because it does.
      As technicians age, we need to have a place for them. Expecting a 58-year-old to perform like a 35-year-old is unrealistic. We need to be more focused on career pathing. Provide training, skill development, and coaching to develop leaders and mentors within our older workforce. While their bodies may have slowed, the knowledge they have gained is priceless. 
      Our future is dependent on young people entering our industry. We need to give more young people opportunities. Every shop owner across the country should consider hiring an apprentice, then build an apprentice training plan and career path for them. If every shop did this, we could solve the technician shortage within five years. Get involved with the trade schools and high schools in your area. Look into the NAPA Apprenticeship Program. Don't sit on your hands with this one. Do it today.
      Lastly, don't get left behind. Commit to ongoing training for all your employees. Keep up to date with tools and equipment tailored to your business model. Don't try to be all things to all people and all vehicles. Identify your core profile customer and the vehicles they drive, and become an expert on those vehicles and the services you offer.
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