skm

Thanks, my way of thinking wasn't about running a business it was simply about well trained techs, as I am sure you know from running a business that there are a lot of hacks and parts changers out there. And good techs being hard to find. That is all. I am sure I will do fine if and when I decide to open a shop. Thanks for your input have a good one as well !! p.s I googled your shop saw a picture of it very very nice I defiantly give your props !

Wow sorry if I hit a nerve.. and its not about technology, and I don't live in the dark ages I just believe in knowing what you are working on sir. I did not personally attack you, so please don't attack me, maybe the truth hurts? Maybe if your computers go down you may have a problem? I don't know and am sorry you feel you need to pay lots of money for subscriptions to things so you can fix your cars when your techs should have that knowledge in their heads. My point to of the whole thread " shortage of good techs". relax, take a deep breath, I'm not going to effect your life or your business see ya

Case in point, the best tech i have ever had was an identifix king.. I guess you didn't really understand my question... but anyway I feel sad that your best tech is a indentifix king. What happens if you internet is down for what ever reason for some time, days or even weeks. How are you going to get work done? If they lean on identifix, if it is not there then what? You seem to think it takes a lot of time to do these tests, well it really does not if you know what you are doing. My point exactly why are good techs hard to find. I guess you just answered that. Nobody cares to learn to be a real tech and maybe you are right why should they ? Hey just get on the computer and look for an answer , now if your doctor was to diagnose you the same way I think you would have a problem with it . What if your doctor asked you some questions then got on WEB MD and prescribed you medicine that most doctors found to help the problem? You would be comfortable with that? After all people are production things as well. We all have the same parts and function the same way hmmmmm..

I see, but as you pull the code you can easily check the operation of the maf and the o2 , now the rest can easily be checked with a smoker made at a good size vacuum port at the intake and blocking the air induction tube at the air filter.. So that was part of my initial question why are good techs becoming scarce, one of my thoughts were all these identifix type things out there, yes they may point you to the most likely cause but what have you learnt? nothing that is the same as the dyi guy googling and youtubing in my opinion. Like I was saying now a days no body wants to learn how things work lets just look up and see what people have found. It is hard to find techs out there that understand the computer systems, know how they work , know what sensors are used for how they work how the computer process these readings (basically just accessing different charts) and then reacting with actuators. Like I said the real tech now a days is a dying breed sad

I have been a Tech for a very long time, I have noticed that techs of a good caliber are getting less and less, Who or what do we really have to blame for this? Schooling costs, Laziness, Lack of drive? I think all of this has a part in it, but about a year and a half ago I was looking to buy an new Scanner. I talked with and sampled all the top tool dealers products. What I noticed about most of them especially Snap on is that is seems everything links to a website that will help you with your diagnostics, so what are we really paying for the diagnostic equipment or the "support" that comes with it? I think these things are doing our techs a disservice you can not fix the car over the phone or through a website. You need hands on and to know what you are looking at, if you can do that you can fix cars at a much faster pace. Needless to say I went with a much cheaper Scanner that does just great, all I need is a Data Stream, some bidirectional communications, and the ability to write some things to the computer . So why pay all the money ??

My thoughts are that if I had a son I would steer him in a totally different direction. Maybe an owner of a shop in one thing but actually doing all the hard work and enduring all the crap that comes with the career ( working in shops with no ac in the summers ) you are always in one way or another subjected to the outside conditions. You work very very hard, have to buy a ton of tools, all the nasty stuff you are exposed too, tend not to get the respect you deserve , and all this for a little pay compared to what you do and what you are worth in relation to other jobs. That being said it actually may be a good thing if he is willing to do it properly and really learn the trade, since so many now a days are just shade tree guys / parts changers etc. so there may be a demand in the future for good guys and gals and the pay may reflect what they are really worth down the road.

About 7 years ago we started getting a different type of owner, I won't go into detail but 8 years ago or so something like the way you do it would of worked. You must be a great owner to work for. Now a days I can't do it that way since I would be pretty much paying for the whole thing. some weeks I get 100+ in tips. I have been there 20 years longer than the next longest guy. I am top money maker and all work off of a 50% commission even the 21 year old kid with no training and knows nothing and rips people and the total rip off king who also knows nothing (nether have any schooling training or certification or any other licenses). so I just spit my junk metal money with the service writer who has been there longer than myself and just keep my tips. The other guys keep all their money.

This brings up the question of junk metal. Does the shop get the money or the tech who did the work? Well in my case when I sell scrap metal and converters I actually split the money with the service writer. I am the only one in the shop that does this, the other guys keep it to them selves. At one point the owner was taking the money, but I made the point to him that he has made the money off of the labor and parts already. This is just a added bonus for us doing all the physical labor he agreed and we now get to keep the money, but as I said I split it with the service writer since he did have a part to play in estimating and selling the job.

What a touchy topic, I my self know all too well about the "gravy tech" . In my case though I am a Master ASE certified tech with my L1, State inspection license and master emissions license. Have worked at the same station for 24 years, seen tons of "techs" and 5 owners come and go. I have really seen a decline in the business and the way business is done over the years. Our gravy tech is a 21 year old kid knows nothing about cars, never had any schooling or formal training. has worked on cars for the last year and a half. He is really bad for business in many ways, and is paid the same as me 50% commission, now yes I make more money than him, but that is not the point. You don't practice as a doctor and get paid as a doctor and try to learn as you go by googling or youtubing how to be a doctor. You go to medical school do your residency then practice, finally making it as a doctor and getting paid the correct amount. I have recently really gotten on the owners case about him and how the shop runs with a bunch of parts changers and thieves. I told him I am not going to put up with it much more and that the kid needs to go to school and he should be paid 400 a week flat before taxes if he doesn't like it let him walk there are plenty of others who would love that money, the only reason I see he gets the pay he does is because he is from the same country and same religion, now these things should never ever play into someones business approach. I have let the owner know how I feel and that thing need to change fast or he is going to go under and I will leave, I explained to him your shop is only as good as the weakest link , surround your self with at least good to decent techs and you have a fighting chance. In the last few months I have contemplated opening my own business, I have plenty of customer base that would follow so that is not a problem, I have many years of actually being involved with the shop in all aspects, so I think I really have a very good fighting chance at making a very profitable business. The only things I am afraid of is the slow start up, and always worrying about the business, as it stands now I can leave work at work. I think I am going to hang in there as long as I can take it ! As I look for a business that I can buy out or someone that is failing not due to location but due to bad techs and bad business approach and wants out where I can take over for a reasonable cost. With that being said I have found that when you work for someone that has no Idea about how a automotive repair shop should run you really can only lend them a hand and beat it into their heads that they are going to loose the business like the four several owners before him unless changes are made. If they don't want to take the advice well, it is just time to move on and let them sink. It is just hard after being somewhere for so long and watching it thrive and fall. All I can say is just be you, take care of your customers, be like me let the gravy tech and the owner know how you feel and in my case that is a daily thing with the gravy tech beating it into his head how he is not a mechanic knows nothing and needs to go to school, I prove it to him on a daily basis. Don't be too harsh but harsh enough to let them know you are for real. anyway good luck with everyone's ventures. Stay strong and be the strongest link in the chain. give a man a fish he will eat for a day teach him to fish he will eat for a life time = take a customer for all you can when they come in you will get a chunk of money one time and your business will then fail. treat them right they will keep giving you money for a very long time and your business with thrive.

very interesting Scott. I would like to know the Model you work on that the light comes back on after a few miles if all four are not replaced? I don't know of such a thing in my 25 years of working on cars have never seen this. The computer is looking for lambda and building a long term fuel table off of the short term fuel table (reflection of the o2 sensors) the rear o2s are primarily used by the computer pretty much as a monitor of the converters seeing what the up stream does in relation to the down stream, yes they can also show exhaust leaks post up stream o2s. I have my own personal vehicles with over 160,000 miles on both never replaced and o2 nor a converter on either. I follow maintenance schedules on vehicles at work, but I don't sell what they don't need. If it says flush coolant and the ph and coolant strength is good and the coolant is clean I leave it, if the cabin air filter or air filter is clean I leave it. I understand wanting and needing to make money to keep a business going, but lets also be fair to our customers. I am sure when you do repairs on a car and the manual tells you to do it a certain way and you find an easier way you do it the easier way right? Not following the guidelines of the manual . That is all these things are , guidelines then you must use your judgement of whether it needs it or not. Not by how heavy or light your wallet is on that particular day.

Funny you guy's are looking for good techs, and I am looking for some one that values me. As some of you know I am a 42 year old ASE master tech , L1 , master emission repair license , and state inspection license. (I may be 42 but people have a hard time believing I am much past 30 good genes I guess) I think if one was to advertise letting one know what would be offered and let them know they would be valued I think you could get the good techs. I have passed up a lot of offers over the years because I thought I would open my own shop and also that a lot of them were just trying to get me to their shops. Now I have been doing lots of research on opening a shop , but don't know if that is the way to go... maybe I should just look for some place that would value me for who and what I am . where I am now I do not feel valued , how could a 21 year old off the street gets 50% as I do , but I get 10 days vacation pay a year but I can't take them all together wow! no retirement , no sick leave, no paid holiday, The 21 year old take more time off that me by far may not be paid but he has had almost a month off this year and is going for another 3 weeks soon. I get told well we need you here more than him. Yeah it really feels like it. I have been doing a lot of research on opening a business but don't know if it would be wiser to just put my name out there and see if someone is willing to pay me for who and what I am . It may be more profitable in the end since I wouldn't suffer as the business got going, and would not have the worry of the business, having it on my mind all the time. All I want to do is be able to retire with a little extra money now I have none! I feel 24 years of hard work , learning , keeping up with the trade and my certifications and licenses have so far been for nill. Sorry seems as If I use the forum to vent a lot of my frustrations. Just seems that True Mechanics are far and in between , but then even if you are a good mechanic nobody really knows the value of you or what you are worth. It seems to be all about the quick dollar not about the quality , quantity of work and caring about the customers. I mean there is not much now a days that I don't beat the clock on. sure everyone runs in to problems now and then , but about most of the time I beat the clock it is as easy as keeping a few step ahead of your hands in your head as you work and you can just flow along knocking the work out, but doing it correctly and properly! Don't even get me started on diagnostics, are there only a few of us around any more that can actually diagnose a car? Knowing what the sensors and actuators do. I can go on for hours about the computer systems and how they work etc. but I won't Im not here to teach class or vent but I had to do one so I vented .. sorry guys have a great day/night which ever it may be where you are

what do you mean by coaching organization? I know I am going to need help and a lot of advice . That is why I posted on this site to try to get advice on how to get started. I have gotten a lot of sound advice, but it is always vague advice. It is like someone asking someone how to drive a car and they hand them the keys and say "start the engine put it in drive and go" I'm looking for someone to point me in the right direction, such as bureaus etc. that can be contacted where I can get the guidance and information to start moving forward. I definitely don't want to come across as disrespectful I appreciate everyone's advice and input. I am just one of those people that want to learn as much as I can about something .

well said, I argue this to the owner of my shop all the time. In the last few years since ownership change the shop has declined quickly, the shop is a mess and looks horrible! The new owners are more geared to the store part of the station not the repair shop, that being said the store looks great, the shop looks like a back alley shop in the worst part of town. One more reason I am looking to opening my own business .

I have done a little searching around, and it seems as if it is a huge feet to get a business going, what I mean by this is that to start with all the locations have a pretty steep rent if you want more than an empty hallway with a garage door on one side. So how would you be able to get a business going with out a huge chunk of money? I seems as if it would be impossible to start with out having some techs in line to start work as soon as you open. My case I don't know anyone at the moment I would hire . It would be nice to find a guy who has failed at the business due to poor work and being able to take over that business and grow it, but that seems to be something that is far and few . How did most get started?

AZ pulls a code and gives them a list of parts that may fix their problem, hoping they will continue to buy parts on the list till one fixes the problem.. I simply tell my customers this . I will diagnose your car for 45.00 if you decide to do the repairs with me I will roll that into your repair costs. Then I explain to them about a code in a way they can understand.. I tell them think of a code as a number on a door, now you open that door and there is a long hallway with many doors lining both sides of it, now the problem lies behind one of those doors, think of those doors as a part that may fix the problem with you car. Now if it is the last door all the way down you would of wasted a lot more than 45.00 to get to that door, so doesn't it make sense to pay me 45 dollars to check behind all those doors and tell you which one to spend your money on? Almost all customers agree ... The thing I found that works best for me is to find a way to talk with a person in a way that he or she may understand. Make it easy where they can picture it in their heads and you are more likely to get the point across.. anyway that is my 2 cents

thanks for the reply. Well for sure the morale has changed, It kills me to see what these guys do. I give the young guy hell all the time about it, he tends to do better when I am there but they work Saturday and some Sundays which I do not do and im sure they rip people off those days. They don't seem to understand you customer is your business! As you know I am not an owner, I would love to be though. My thoughts are that a person off the street "lube tech" should do oil changes, change light bulbs, tires etc. and should be paid something like 400.00 a week salary before taxes. Then to me an entry level tech is someone that has finished some sort of automotive repair school, they should be paid slightly higher, maybe even commissioned at say 30% then as they become better and more certified a raise in percentage should be given (would need to work out a scale for certifications vs percentage of pay) . That being said someone like my self fully certified with inspection license , L1, and Master emission license should get 50% and maybe even a little extra such I don't know I am not a owner or have actually run a business, but think if I was an owner that is the kind of person I would want to employ and keep happy .

I was wondering what the general census on ASE certifications vs. pay and benefits? I have been working at the same shop for 24 years. I am an ASE master tech , L1 , State Inspection License, and Master Emission Repair License . I am paid 50 percent commission with 10 days paid vacation, about 40% towards my health insurance, no paid holidays or sick leave.Also no kind of retirement I work along side a 21 year old with no certifications or schooling who really knows nothing I help him with all his diagnostics and repairs, I also work along side an older guy also no schooling or certifications who also knows almost nothing , he tends to do engine and trans swaps (which take him a very very long time to complete) both of these fellow employees are paid the same as me 50%. I am very passionate on doing the job correctly the first time and I follow the labor guides to the tee. These other guys make up prices and really rip customers off never really solving problems. This drives me up a wall. I have tried over and over to drill it into the owners head about taking care of a customer honestly and fairly and having them come back over and over again for other repairs instead of just trying to get as much as you can at one time.. but of course it tends to fall on deaf ears. I always tell him the business is only as good as the weakest link. Is this just where I work or is this where the industry is trending? Nobody seems to want to learn the trade anymore everyone is a "technician" I am seriously thinking of starting my own business to give the public a fair and proper facility to get repairs done. Am I alone in this thinking or is it the trend? Does everyone pay their employees the same no matter skill level, certification level, and experience?

I have worked at a station for the last 24 years. The labor rate started at 38.50 an hour when I started , I have been trying to get the owner to up his rate since it has been at 90.00 for the last 7 years. I have been telling him that the cost of living has gone up every year and our pay has stayed the same so we are behind as far as pay. I am in Maryland and I am pretty sure the labor rate around here is much more like 100+ . That is one reason I am really thinking about starting my own repair shop , people will pay for honest and quality work with out batting an eye. Look at the price of gas it goes up , yes people may complain , but do they stop buying it?? No . Is anyone from the Maryland area? if so what are your rates?

That is what everyone tells me. I should just find a location that isn't too far from where I am now and once word gets out the loyal customers will follow. The thing is I now work 20 miles from where I live. Not a huge distance but I would like to get a little closer to home. I guess what it boils down to is I am afraid of how long it will actually take for the customers to find out where I am since I have been at the same location for 24 years and never passed out business cards or anything like that they just know where to find me and we have a service writer that is their main contact , although they do know me and that I do their work for them. So I guess I am mainly scared of loosing quite a bit of income till they find me. The biggest problem is I am 100% sure that where I work now will NOT pass on my new location.

well that is kind of what I am looking for advice on... I don't know weather a branded station or an independent repair facility would be best. I of course want to have at least 2-3 other techs there. I want to transition away from doing all the work I don't mind doing the diagnostics and getting keeping my hands dirty to keep the quality and work flow going , but do want to slow down a bit. I am in Maryland as far as exact location well Im not sure at this point. As far as work general repairs and maintenance . I am not looking to run a shop that swaps engines and transmissions out , I my self enjoy diagnostic work, no starts etc. computer related stuff, so basically a all around repair facility.

I appreciate everyone's advice! I am actually have a very good knowledge on how the station that I work at runs I was always very friendly with the owners and got to know the ins and outs of the business, until the station was sold to people who are just worried about money and not the business. I am looking to open a business so I can better my life, and have some kind of nest egg for retiring. I am not sure If a branded station or a repair shop is the way to go. I know with a station you can have a little back up with gas and store for the slow times. I really feel and have been told by many that I will have no problem doing it, I guess my main concern was failure. I think that is a normal concern though. I have lots of people that want to back me but of course I feel that those people really want to invest money sit back while I do all the work and collect off of the business, which I am not willing to do. I have seen to many "partners" fail. I hope this thread will continue to grow with all the great advice that can be shared. once again thanks for all the solid advice so far !!! SKM

I am a ASE certified master tech with my L1, master emission repair license , and state inspection license. I have worked at a Branded gas station for the last 24 years, I am looking for information on how to get started in my own shop. I wanted some input on how to do this if to get a service station or a repair shop . Also a realistic view of what it would cost to get started . If anyone could steer me in the right direction I would be appreciated . Besides obtaining a shop my other worry would be finding good Mechanics, I am a person that believes the work has to be done top notch , I can't stand people that guess or throw parts at cars nor people that gouge or rip customers off like selling 4 oxygen sensors on a car. Never happens, it is like buying 4 tv's at the same time what are the chances that all 4 die at once? anyway any help would be appreciated. thanks, S.M.