TheTrustedMechanic

On 9/21/2023 at 9:57 AM, Transmission Repair said:

Also, don't forget about Social Security.  People who get paid "under the table" are unknowingly clipping themselves out of a lot of S.S. pay later in life.  Earlier in my career, I worked for a family who would pay us by check but insisted we cash the paychecks with them.  They had a safe in their back office full of cash.

They also had a construction company in Chicago that I now suspect took in a lot of cash, but who knows?  Now that I'm collecting S.S., I've come to realize they weren't reporting my income on the 941.  Thanks to those clowns, I'm now collecting much less S.S. than I should be because they weren't reporting my income.

I came to learn that not reporting all income comes back to haunt a person much later in their life.

Not to mention if they want to get a bank loan or a credit card or anything that might depend on their "income." Sure, it might feel nice to have that "extra cash," but anyone who wants to or is willing to work "under the table, " or "off the books" is really cheating themselves, including shop owners who skim the cash payments and only report what has a paper trial, ie checks and credit card receipts. I mean, cash payments aren't that big of a piece of the pie, are they? So, what's the big deal if I take the cash from quick jobs, it's not hurting anyone is it? (For the record, all italics are meant SARCASTICALLY and I am in no way advocating it.)

17 hours ago, bantar said:

The good news is that there are SMSs with on-prem solutions that meet your data privacy requirements.   You'd want to ask them if they are planning to switch to cloud, so that you don't get one that wants to force you to upgrade later.   It's an expensive transition to rewrite their software for cloud, so some companies may choose to never go cloud.

I see value in both models and only tried to lay out a pros/cons list.

I've previously written a large detailed description of why targeting a production data server is not as easy as it seems.   A modern cloud compute engine and it's database are isolated.  The malware and ransomware attacks generally hit those systems that must be "open by design".   For example, I must access this shared filesystem to be able to share my spreadsheet / document with other employees.  These open systems are where the attacks occur.   I'll just say that the cloud systems have a much lower risk of attack.   The cloud computers in our shops don't ACCESS the cloud server, but rather ask it to perform tasks.  The cloud server is a closed/isolated system.  It's safe to consider.   I contend that it is much safer than my local and secured network.

And just how do you "ask" the server to perform those tasks or get data from it or store data to it?  You seem awfully argumentative and too eager to try and prove your point when you are only make specious claims.  But, you do you and I will protect my data as I see fit.  Since you are endeavoring to ignore reality, logic and only argue. 

Because there were numerous articles citing specific examples and they were so easy to find regarding hacked cloud servers, this discussion with you is moot because you continue to refuse to admit to reality.  For just one example, Reuters reported,
 

11 minutes ago, bantar said:

Me thinks TheTrustedMechanic doesn't trust these guys!  😬😁    However, it's critical to be certain of where you stand, so I'm with you on that. 
I don't trust what I know to be a potential breach of trust and privacy.

Ownership of your data is a contractual issue.  If it's not stated as yours, it's not yours.   But, think about the reputation of the software companies that block you from transferring your data to the next guy...   They would get a bad rap and not live much longer.   Therefore, most will allow your data to be exported.  Ask the SMS about this before signing up.    Most SMSs can import data from other SMSs.  Once the data export is completed, there is no need to access your data from the old SMS (with the caveat that not all items can be imported).   See Import Example below.  
This is NOT the point, sure, you might be able to transfer your data to a new service, but as was admitted, "not all items can be imported."  The point is, you only have a license to access your data, nothing more.

Personally, I don't have an issue with either on-prem(ise) SMSs or cloud-based SMSs.   If you have on-prem, you must have a disaster plan in place for everything from hardware failures to virus recovery to ransomware attacks.  And you must establish a solid backup process that ensures that you lose very little data in the worst case scenario.   You are not impacted much by an internet outage.   If you have a hardware or data failure, you are the IT guy that must bring it back up.  You will likely get phone support from your SMS on the steps to recover.    With redundancy and a stellar backup strategy and practice, this can be 30-60 minutes.   It can be way longer depending on what the failure mode is.   You are the IT guy!    You will perform software updates when you approve them.

With Cloud based SMSs, your data is stored in a professional data center.  Backups and hardware failures are managed by the SMS.  You are VERY dependent on the internet working as no internet means no SMS.   There are mitigations that might help if your main internet goes down, such as using a Mobile Hotspot for temporary internet access.  You are beholden to the SMS technical team to correct any software bugs / outages that might occur in the cloud.  You can only complain and wait on resolution.  Software updates on Cloud-based SMSs usually occur more often as these are easier deployments for the developer of the SMS.

This is irrelevant, because in the event that your local system goes down, you won't have access to the online services anyway.  You will still have to be, "...the IT guy." Not to mention that hackers and malcontents will target which, your local system or a large data server?  And don't pretend that large data servers are impervious to hacker, malware and ransomware attacks.

Pick whichever is better for you.

Import Example:   I use Protractor that allows me to have all customer family members, with separate emails and phone numbers per person under a single record.   The software does not allow this on a number of other SMSs.  There structure is a single person and phone number.  By definition, if I were to import the data to another one, the import would discard the extra names and only select one to be primary contact, email and phone number.   This is not horrible, but it is an example where data import is NOT Perfect.  

Personally, as a computer guy, I distrust computers.   I know that they can fail on a moments notice.   I have my own backup strategy and backup my data monthly on top of what the SMS is doing for me in the cloud.   This includes my contacts, vehicles, invoice summaries, financials, etc.  What I don't backup are the actual invoices.   Now, this happens monthly.  I also backup this data to an offline storage drive, but because I'm lazy or forgetful, this happens maybe quarterly.  Ransomware cannot get a hold of a storage drive that is not connected to the network!

Access to your data:   I'm also using AutoFlow for DVIs.  I asked them about their access policy should I desire to switch to the next new thing.   They said that I would have access to MY data with no additional fees for as long as I need.  It's read only data.  I can't modify anything.  I can't run reports, but I can access the completed DVIs.   What a great policy by them!!!   This is what stand-up companies do.   Ask your potential SMS about this, and ask them to show you this in writing to be sure.   They are likely going to have a solution.

Ask the right questions and pick a good partner companies to work with that you trust! 

This should be considered on a case-by-case basis.   Hunt with Paar Melis and Associates, an auto shop accounting firm, is mining his clients data with permission and presenting to all of us a set of baselines that may help us manage our businesses.  This is a good use of data mining.  
The key here is that this professional service provider has sought PERMISSION.  The cloud based data storage (your SMS provider) does not, will not and is not required to seek your permission before accessing, mining, selling or using your data because, despite all the flowery, "Your privacy is very important to us," male bovine excrement in the Privacy Policy, YOU HAVE NO PRIVACY.  Read it, every line and then try to think of how it can be twisted to allow them the access they are trying so hard to deny they will take.  And this access, mining, sale and use, as I said will NOT be in ways that are readily apparent to you or your customer.

Now, when I talked to RepairPal, they wanted access to my SMS and I had no desire to allow them into my system.   I don't see any good reason why I should allow my customer data and sales to escape.  Given that this was a contractual requirement, I opted not to work with them.   Now, if Protractor wanted to mine my data for some statistical data exercise, I can't see how I could be hurt.  Leave my customers alone and we're good.   And lastly, I allow my marketing companies to access my customer data for marketing purposes.  This benefits me and my customers and I'm trusting that they will not STEAL my customers.

Again, RepairPal asked for access, they asked for permission and you denied it.  Your marketing company has access to your customer data because YOU GAVE PERMISSION.  Cloud based storage services do not ask for permission because it is in the EULA and (you have NO) "Privacy Policy" that people do not read.  Just like a used car salesman says, "Trust me, we inspect every car we sell." What they don't tell you but you are led to believe is that they may inspect the car, find problems but they do NOT fix them.  "Look, over there! So you don't see the scam I'm running over here."  Same thing.  It's a very simple situation, you do you, do what you feel serves your business, but please don't try to downplay, dismiss or deny what happens every single day and what is common knowledge to those with any level of research into the "privacy policies" and actions of these companies.  There is a reason why lawsuits have been brought and the decision was, "Those who own the server, own the data."

On 1/18/2023 at 9:52 AM, cooterdavenport1 said:

Yes. I've been told I'll have to house servers for Mitchell or other on-premise systems, which sounds like a bigger headache than I can imagine from anything where I don't have to. I'm not a computer whiz but I'm good enough to get by on something with no maintenance I'd bet.

I am not sure what or who has told you that you will have to house servers, but I think they are trying to scare you into buying their program.

Depending on your setup and business size/# of locations, your "Server" could be nothing more than your desktop computer.  Properly configured a simple desktop computer with moderate hardware (CPU speed, # of processors, memory, etc.) can be your "Server" and you could connect as many "clients" or satellite computers to it as you have in your shop. 

One thing to consider when "going on the cloud" is you do NOT own your data, period, full stop. Why is this important? Because if you were to stop paying that company for access to YOUR DATA that THEY OWN, you will lose all of it.  Meanwhile, most local installation (on your shop computer's hard drive) programs will have some kind of legacy access.  Meaning, if you change programs and no longer pay them the subscription fee, you can still access the data, just with very limited rights, such as view and print customer information/invoices only.  Other local programs, like the old desktop QuickBooks, once you buy the program, you own it and it will work forever (at least until you have a catastrophic hardware failure) and will always have access to your data.  On the cloud, once you as the cash cow stop paying the cloud company, you lose access.  Although I guess some will allow you limited access for a short period of time afterward, it's not in perpetuity like a local installation. 

And one last consideration of you do not own your data, no matter what their "Privacy Policy" says, they have every legal right to access any of your data, mine it, sell it, use it, delete it, modify it, do anything they want to with it.  Most won't do anything with your data that is evident to you but they will certainly be able to mine it, use it, sell it anyway, anytime and to anyone they want and you won't be the wiser.  This is not conspiracy theory, this is actual fact and legal, because "They who own the server, own the data."

I am currently reviewing new SMS systems so that is how I found this thread.  Although it's not very informative, as most queries like these aren't either.

Personally, I don't want the caliber of clientele, aka consumers, who would come in from social media, self-absorbed and narcissistic.  Yes, I know this is a general notion and that there are many people who are not that way.  Maybe it's the 80/20 rule, 80% will be great, 20% will be the ones who consume you. 
Consider this, if you run your own social media campaign, how much will it cost you to have a presence on all of the social media platforms that are out there and that are emerging?

Consider this, if you hire an outside firm to do your social media marketing, what caliber will it be?  How much will that cost you and how often will the posts be made?
Consider this, if you were to advertise in every possible online forum, outlet, social media page and search engine, how much time will it take you to make sure you are on all of them and how much will it cost you to make sure you have a compelling presence?

ONLY those who have a vested interest in separating a shop owner from their money through advertising will ever argue that we must advertise or have a presence in any specific arena or site. Other than that, how a shop owner markets their business will depend on the caliber of clientele they want.  Any shop owner who has been around understands that there are good advertising investments and bad ones.  That shop owner also understands that new is not always better and that the tried and true may eventually falter.  The shop owner also knows that what worked last week might not work today but might work fantastically next week. 

Bottom line is, YES! We can ignore social media but we do so at our peril and have to find other avenues of marketing to replace the worthless (and expensive) "Spaghetti at the wall" advertising of social media. Social media marketing is not just posting to your account once a week and hoping people see it in their feeds and don't just scroll on by, because that is what most do.  But the likes of farcebook and TWITter and the like will tell you that you had 80 bazillion gazillion "views," even though the user just scrolled right past your ad or post.
Why don't shops advertise on billboards, those are seen by people who own cars, right?  Why don't shops advertise with matchbooks anymore?  Social media is seen by people who own cars, who don't own cars, who don't own anything but a phone, but it's somehow valuable to advertise to those people?  ONLY to those who have a vested interest in selling advertising and marketing.  If a shop is big enough to support a full-time social media person, go for it.  But to pay someone other than an employee to create and publish your social media posts and then to pay to "boost" your impressions gets VERY costly and for what kind of return?

I am located in a building that houses 5, soon to be 4 other businesses and my landlord bought the building about 4 years ago to base their two businesses in, so buying the building will not likely be available for purchase.  I am located in Traverse City, MI.  My rent for a 2000 sq. ft. space is only $1058/mo. so any purchase will be far more expensive on a monthly basis but still my desire.

This may sound brusque but I have my reasons, you are welcome to have your opinion about buying new vs used and such, but please understand that I have my reasons and contribute accordingly, please.  I only write this because I know how some strings of comments can go.   

But, to my query and I truly and sincerely appreciate everyone’s opinion, professional experience and reasons in their answers.  I am wanting/needing to replace my current truck.  I made a mistake buying it, but I did.  I have a 2021 Toyota Tacoma Limited that I absolutely hate and is the biggest POS I have ever owned and that includes the Suburban that puked a motor a month after I bought it used.  I would really prefer a mid-sized truck but given my domestic situation I also want to replace my small but very nice camper trailer with something a little bit bigger, so my girlfriend and I have more room and comfort.  Anything decent weighs in the 7000 + CGVW range topping out around 9000 for what we would likely want.  So that puts the mid-sized out of the picture since most are limited to 7000 or slightly over.  Fuel economy is also very important, but I know that a full-sized truck will not be great.  I was spoiled with my 2018 Colorado Centennial Edition which would regularly return 22+ on trips on the expressway and 24+ on rural highways.  But the transmission was one of those 8 speed beasts that did more shuddering that shifting so it was replaced by this POS Tacoma on the strong recommendation of a friend who had owned 3 Tacomas over the years and currently had a 2020.  To make matters worse, besides the dismal fuel economy, it won’t break 19 mpg on the expressway, it shudders too.

Okay, this is getting long but you have the background and needs for a new truck.  I would prefer a new as opposed to used for some reason.  What trucks would you recommend or recommend staying away from?  Decreasing the pool of possible candidates is the very strong desire to have a moonroof.  An integrated brake control system would be nice but not necessary since I have a very nice Tekonsha unit now.  I am not a fan of Chrysler products but I am also looking for something to buy and keep for an extremely long period of time.  Thank you to all who read and respond, I a truly grateful.

I regrettably still rent but with a fantastic landlord.  Property in my area has always been crazy expensive and unless I want to move across town and out of town, there is nothing that is zoned industrial (required for auto repair where I am).  With that said, I am always wanting to buy because of the dozen or so repair shops that have gone up for sale over the last 20 years, I know of only two that actually sold and both had property.  The rest were buying a job basically where they had no property, just the business, equipment and customer database.  So, I know I own a job, not a business and I know that my retirement is not very secure, but it is what it is because of where I am.  But it makes me a good living and I guess I will make the best of it and try to position myself for purchase should something come up.

But, buy is the only way to go after you are established.  When you're starting out, renting is probably the best/cheapest way to go. 

Most doctors'/dentists' offices in my area do not charge for missed appointments unless its a habit and you don't call first.  But calling to reschedule even the day of usually does not result in a charge.  Likewise, you make a haircut appointment and don't make it, do you have to pay for the one you missed before you can make another one?  It's frustrating but it happens and we have to live with it. 

With that said, I had one customer who claimed she only trusted me, wouldn't go anywhere else and had to have me work on her car.  She was lazy and a flake.  She claimed medical issues but even when I would call her the day before and she was enthusiastic and adamant that she would be there and then I'd call her hours before her appointment she would still either be 30-60 minutes late or not show up at all.  Finally I got fed up with it, I had tried everything else so I finally told her she would have to prepay for her appointment before I would schedule it.  I told her if she didn't make it within 15 minutes of the appointment time, she would forfeit the labor portion and have to pay again before I would reschedule.  She agreed once and made it 20 minutes late. I let it go and did the work.  The next time it was the same thing, you have to pay for the appointment up front and if you are more than 15 minutes late, you lose the labor portion.  She was almost an hour late and then argued that she couldn't make it on time.  I stuck to my guns and held her to the agreement she had made.  I refunded nothing and she didn't have me do the work.  This was the last time I saw her but she did call a couple times years later.  I hated to do it, but I was tired of losing 2 or 3 hours because she would not show up for her appointments.  Since she did have multiple medical conditions (none that prevented her from getting around when SHE wanted to) I turned the tables on her and asked if she was ever late for a doctors' appointment and before she answered I asked her, if you're late do they still take you and put off all their other patients who arrived on time and kept their appointments?  She was like, "Yeah, but," and I cut her off before she could make up a lie.

Get used to people not showing up, it's frustrating but it is a part of running a business where you work on a schedule.  When people call me to cancel, I am always friendly and nice and I respond with, "I am sad that I won't get to serve you, but thank you for calling to cancel.  Now I know that you won't be in, I can use that time to serve someone else and I am sure they would thank you too."  It reinforces that their actions affect not only me but other people as well and that their thoughtfulness in showing me the respect of cancelling is appreciated.

I always wonder why people are so eager to sacrifice so much for the new and shiny.  I acknowledge that we have little privacy anymore.  But it is exactly this attitude of ANYTHING for that shiny new bauble or "cheaper" option.  But with cloud systems

• you do NOT own the data, you create it and the cloud server company owns it and licenses you access to it.
• the server owner has the legal right to mine any data on their servers anytime they want for any reason they want and use/sell it anyway they want. 
• large data centers are a far bigger target for DNS or ransom attacks than your local network.

A local installation, meaning on your machines, all of that data is yours, only yours and can only be used by your permission.  And don't think for one minute that that end user license agreement or "privacy" policy that you agreed to but never read protects you, your customers or in any way stands up for your interests over the server owner.  This is not conspiracy theory, this is fact and law.  I'll keep my SMS off the cloud.  The only way it fails is if my machine fails or the electricity goes out which is true with the cloud as well.  Whereas if your server farm is hit with ransom ware, guess what Bunky, your data is not available and may never be.  Do ahead, keep thinking the convenience is the only aspect, that there is no downside, but ask Jasper or Caterpillar or any of the other mega-corps or municipalities or hospitals that get hit with ransom ware attacks about the downsides.  That big server farm is a more lucrative target than a 1 or 2 or 5 or 30 location repair shop's IT.

On 9/20/2020 at 1:27 PM, Southards said:

11 years ago I moved from rock and chisel to Tabs Autofluent.  It's awesome and easy. About 5 years into it I purchased the software and now just pay $73 a month for all the updates and any assistance I ever need.  The staff is great and can talk me through an issue or remotely hands on fix or show me what I need help with. I highly recommend

I looked into Tabs AutoFluent a couple years ago and was highly impressed.  I even signed up and bought the data conversion service.  However I would not use the system or "play around" with their demo database until my data was converted and I could use my own data.  The two could not be merged.  So a week from the expiration of my trial period I was told my data still wasn't being worked on to be converted.  I gave them an ultimatum, either extend my trial period starting on the date my data was delivered to me to use in their system or refund my money.  They refunded my money.  I was disappointed but I was not going to run dual systems or double enter my R.O.s.  If I was going to use and "try" AutoFluent I was going to do it live and for real, adding to my exisiting customer database not losing all of it once the past data was finally converted.

I was really excited at the prospect of what they promised they could do.  But they didn't deliver in a way that I could actually try it out in real life.

Or, the merchant could just be upfront and tell the customer that using a credit card will incur a 3% surcharge.  Then the merchant would actually be saving the customer money and putting $1462.50 into their pocket for every $50,000 in credit card charges.

Something for the merchants to keep in mind is the reason why you charge them 1% + 25¢ for debit cards is because you are limited by law as to how much you can charge debit card transactions.  So the merchant will make up what you can't charge the customer. 

I don't really know what heading to put this under, but I see this as a marketing advantage.  I am the first shop in my area to have a no-charge loaner car program, but now I am one of two.  So it's really a marketing advantage, so here I am, posting under Advertising and Promotions.

I am in the process of replacing my loaner car.  I would like real world advice from my fellow techs and shop owners.  We all have our preferences and we all see certain vehicles in our shops more than others.  Shop A might see very few imports while Shop B might see a mix.  So Shop B could have more insight into what imports have problems and what those problems might be than Shop A. 

Okay, now the conditions I have for my loaner, I have wanted a minivan since I put my first loaner into service.  I have had a very few customers decline the use of the loaner because they needed more than 5 passenger seating.  I have had customers decline the loaner car because their driveway was uphill and we are in Northern Lower Michigan where snow is a consideration, so I have wanted AWD too.  My first loaner was a Mercury Sable, replaced by an immaculately maintained Honda CRV so I at least got the AWD I wanted, even though it was not a important while I have had it as it was when I had the Sable. 

I know that anything I have will be a compromise for my customers at times.  Even if I had a car, a truck, a minivan and a full-sized van, all with AWD, chances are the specific one the customer would want would be out, so compromise it will be.  That and I am too small to float the expense of too many loaner cars.  So what I am asking is, within the following parameters, what would each of you recommend for a reliable, low cost of ownership vehicle?  What would you put into your fleet if you were working within my parameters?

• I want to spend about $10,000
• No new vehicle leases
• NO, and I mean NO European brand/influenced models
• AWD would be preferable but not required
• Easy to understand operation of such things as lights, windows, ignition, etc.  My current CR-V has window switches on the dashboard instead of the door, the ignition has that funny turn-off, stop, push in and turn to lock and the rear hatch has to have the glass released then the door opens like a door.  All of this confuses some customers. 

My average loaner car usage is between 6,000-8500 miles a year so a higher mileage specimen would not be out of the question.  Thank you for all for your time and suggestions.

23 hours ago, CAR_AutoReports said:

I don't "run the clock".  Every circumstance is different.

To help customers understand, I document everything I do from start to finish, just like we track our time.

That means every test we perform, I attach its result and label what I did to test any given part and why.

Since each circumstance is different, we try to make the most of our time.  We request up to 2 hours and will work up to 3, assuming the third hour is on us.

If we need more than that... we send the customer the information and then call them to review it.  Ask them if they want us to keep going or if they will figure things out differently.

 

Strange thing happens.  When you treat someone like a friend and respect their hard earned money, they have no problems paying for the service they are receiving.

 

So, we work insanely hard at being accurate, fair, and professional at everything we do. 

Our customers notice and don't mind paying... because they feel what we provide, is worth paying for. 

It didn't happen overnight and it was a really long road here, but I'll never run any other service business in this lifetime with any other mindset.
 

I like a lot of what you wrote.  From the way you structured your scenario that I replied to, it sounded like you did all that work and then handed them the bill.  I couldn't figure out at what points you contacted the customer for additional approval.  For my misunderstanding I apologize, but I NEVER intended any disrespect.

I agree that documentation and explanation are key.  My best customer is the educated customer.  Not college or higher learning, but the one who is aware of what I have done, what needs to be done and why it needs to be done to achieve their objective of a safe and reliable car.  I feel it is my job to educate them on these topics so they can make an educated decision that hopefully is the best decision for them and their family.  So documentation is key. 

You really caught my eye with your line, "When you treat someone like a friend and respect their hard earned money..." because that is exactly how I treat my customers.  I work hard for my money and demand value for what I spend.  I expect to provide the same to my customers.  And above all, I fully realize that I am spending my customer's money when I recommend a repair.  I understand Genuine's position and I fought the same fight, people claimed they didn't have any money.  And during the recession or the beginning months of the year, that is true, many people are barely getting by.  But building a relationship, if you can, is the key.  Out of 100 customers through the door, you might only retain 20 and only 10 become long-term customers.  But building relationships and adamantly demanding honesty, knowing when to turn down a job because it's not "right" is the best way to conduct business I believe.

We all hear, "But I'm going to be selling the car soon," as a ploy to get us to 'band-aid' a repair.  What happens when we do? A year later the customer comes back with, "But you just FIXED it."  But did you really fix it or did you just band-aid it so they could sell the car like they swore they were going to do?  Or you put the cheapest part on because anything was better than the bad on that was on the car.  One year warranty you tell them but that won't matter because they are going to sell the car.  Two years later they come back, "But you just put that on, now it's bad again.  I shouldn't have to pay for it again because YOU put a cheap part on."  It took me about 3 years to finally figure out how to call the "But I'm selling it" customer a liar without being offensive and to REFUSE to do anything but, "The right job, the right way, at a fair and honest price."  Now when I hear that line, unless there is literally a For Sale sign in the window, I do NOT believe it and I NEVER compromise my quality and integrity in order to meet their expected low price point.  I have built a reputation and most of my customers simply say, "Fix it, I trust you."  But that is of course after I explain, what went wrong, why it needs THIS specific repair and how much it will cost.

But the bottom line is, I hope you did not feel that I was disrespecting you, or if you did that you understand now that I was not.  I just didn't know where in your scenario you made your calls for additional time and repairs.

@CAR_AutoReports With all due respect can I ask how you can run the clock and then hand them the bill?

I am not saying you are doing anything wrong or shouldn't do as you do, I like how you do it.  But do you just have the customer sign a blank check or do you have them approve a couple hours and then have them approve more time as needed?  Here in Michigan we have to have a signed work order authorizing a certain amount and if we exceed that amount we must have verified approval of an additional amount.  Unlike a plumber or carpenter or doctor we can't just do the work, hand the bill and expect to get paid regardless of what the amount is.  If we want to charge for 6 hours we must either write the estimate/work order at the outset or get approval along the way.  I'm just wondering how you handle the approval process if there is one.

37 minutes ago, Joe Marconi said:

We hear all too often that the "other shop they went to, does not charge for diagnostic testing" or "waives the diag if the customer agrees to do the work"

I have always wanted to ask this customer, "And did they fix the problem?  If so why are you here?"  Because you know that the shop either did NOT waive the fee or they didn't fix the problem or they don't want to deal with this customer any longer. 

I have also wanted to ask the customer who asks me if I do "Free Inspections" if they are willing to work at their job and not get paid for it.  If you think about it, the customer is really our boss, on an average day we will have 2 or 3 or 5 "bosses".  What they are telling us here is that they want us to do work for them for free.  But let their boss ask them to come in and work for an hour or two and not get paid for it and what do you think their answer will be?

On 2/15/2020 at 5:53 PM, Joe Marconi said:

 Don't give up on value. The reason why independent shop can charge a higher price for a brake job, for example, is because the the value they bring to their customer."

 

Not being a smart-A, but can you give an example of how you think we add value to the brake job so we can charge more?  If the dealer is offering OE pads and rotors, it's not in the quality of the part, because the customer still sees OE as higher quality, just more expensive.  We can't offer it necessarily on warranty, because the dealer offers a warranty too.

So just what do you think that we add to the equation that the dealer does not?  I know my customers prefer my shop over the dealers or national chains because of the personal relationship.  They are dealing with the owner and my sense of morals and ethics not a soulless business operating under "business ethics." "Because we add value" is a nice buzzword phrase, but as Genuine wrote, most customers simply do not care, they look at the bottom line.  Yes we need to build a sense of value in their minds, but just how do you propose to do it?  Not theoretical, abstract, generic allusions, but specific examples please.

@GENUINE - I work with JustTheBest and I can tell you that he knows what he is talking about, but I also know that you are 100% correct.  Good customers are not everywhere, some places do have too much low-ball competition and there simply are not enough good customers to go around in some areas.  You presented your REAL WORLD facts and JustTheBest presented fancy buzzwords but you are both right.  For example, on the point of Henry Ford, his words were correct, but he operated a business on a far grander scale than most of us will ever achieve.  And that gave him great opportunities that we will never have. 

I know two things from experience,

1) You will get a lot of "hate" and negative feedback telling you that you are wrong, that you can change your situation and your customers if you want to, if you try hard enough, if you put in enough effort, if you try this latest fad advertising. 

2) I have been exactly where you are and deal with exactly what you express that you deal with.  I have overcome some of it, but some of it I simply do not have the means, methods, opportunities or privileges to use to overcome.  So in some ways, I can, in other ways, like you, through situation and circumstance, I simply can't.  Not because I think I can't but because I do not have the means, opportunities or privileges to do so. 

For example. let's say even though you own your property, let's say you are renting, as I am, even if you wanted to move and you have the money to move and the bank approval for a purchase price that is at a level that is competitive, ALL of that is you thinking that you CAN, However, if there is no property available to buy that will allow your repair shop business (in my community it is not only "industrial" zoning but it also has to be approved for auto repair) then you CAN'T.  You CAN'T not because you think you can't but because you do not have the privilege or opportunity.  Sure, you "can" move your shop 100 miles away where there are buildings for sale, but that is not a wise opportunity or truly feasible unless you truly want to start over from scratch.  However that was of little concern to Henry Ford, he didn't have to move his family or his business, he just moved a manufacturing facility or a dealership or an office complex, he moved a fraction of the operation, not the entire operation.  That is where you are 100% correct, "The pie in the sky Apple, Starbucks, etc philosophy just doesn't always work, not at the small level of most independent repair shops. At least not here." And no matter how accurate JustTheBest and Henry are, it does not apply and does not change anything in your situation. 

I have worked with JTB for several years and he and I have disagreed on things and I had doubted other things would work but tried them anyway.  The things I tried usually worked and had positive ROIs, some much to my surprise.  Some didn't work very well (only X/10% ROI positive) while others worked extremely well and were 10, 20, 30x ROI positive.  I have flat out refused to try some things because they cut against my personal beliefs.  While I would not say they were dishonest, they were not consistent with who I am.  Other things I have declined to try simply because they are not conducive to my business, like pushing LOFs HARD.  I lose money on every one compared to selling that rack time for a full rate parts & labor job since I am a one man shop.  If I was a big enough operation to have a dedicated LOF rack and tech, it would be a different deal, but I am not. So I "can" push LOF's hard and fill my day with oil changes, but I CAN'T make any money at them.  That is not me thinking I can't that is just cold hard reality,  Just like it is with you in your situation. 

So I suggest you "man up," put your flame suit on and be prepared to get torched with all these "The pie in the sky Apple, Starbucks, etc" philosophers.  Not all are that way, but enough are and they are happy to tell you, "You can, but only if you are willing to work hard enough," not recognizing that you are working hard enough, you just don't have the right resources to draw from or build with.  Others will tell you, "I was in your shoes, this is what I did and it will work for you, but only if you do it EXACTLY AS I DID."  You and I both know that just because it worked in their shop doesn't mean it will work with yours.  But there is still a great deal of knowledge here and JustTheBest has a lot of great ideas and systems to try, some you will stick with, others you might try and decide you either don't have the time to work or the interest in spending the money for help to do.  But don't give up.  You can't get blood from a turnip, but that doesn't mean you can't make it into a decent meal.

@dfrisby I agree 100%.  In your situation, with this customer, I probably would have done exactly the same.

@dfrisby You can always find a reason to install customer supplied parts and examples of how it works out.  But in the end, it is nothing but a problem. 

What if this customer, after you installed the hood release cable and then quoted the other work, he asked to buy those parts and have you install them too?  Where does it end?  When I first opened I thought I would win customers by agreeing to install their parts the first time.  I can't remember the only customer who converted from parts supplied to parts buyer. 

With that said, I will install certain parts for certain customers, such as the one who wanted a back-up camera and monitor that was a gift from a family member or the fellow with the 1960 Thunderbird that needs a wiper switch that he has already purchased.  But the person who calls up and asks, "How much to install tie rod ends?  I already bought the parts." is a BIG no!

I used to stock Interstate batteries.  NAPA tried soliciting my business with a free battery rack with a 10 circuit maintainer if I changed.  Because I had been very happy with Interstate batteries I declined.  But not a month later warranties started coming back.  Within 2 months I had replaced no less than 10 Interstate batteries that were less than 3 years old, most were around 2 years old.  My final straw with Interstate was when the route driver told me that only one of the batteries was actually faulty, that two just weren't charged fully.  I knew that was B.S.  First their branded battery tester was nothing more than a Midtronics MDX-300 with a built in printer, my tester was the MDX-350P with printer, so it was the exact same test protocol.  Second one of the batteries he told me was good but not fully charged had been charged with my Snap-On computerized battery charger that has a programming mode.  I fully charged the battery overnight and left it disconnected from the van for about 6 hours before testing.  The battery tested bad.  When a battery tests bad, I always disconnect it and test it again right on the terminals or with lead test posts.  When Interstate wouldn't admit their failed batteries I decided to rid myself of the problem.  Thankfully my local NAPA jobber pulled some favors and got me the free rack with maintainer and put in NAPA Legend batteries.  I have had them in stock for more than 3 years, always sold NAPA batteries when I didn't have Interstate batteries in stock and I have had no more than 12 NAPA battery warranties in 14 years of business.  My only complaint is that the pro-rata warranty is ridiculous.  Many times by the 5th year (60 months into a 75 month warranty), the pro-rata cost for replacement is more than the wholesale cost from my local supplier.  That is my ONLY complaint but like I said, I have less than a 1% warranty rate.  Not so with Interstate.  I have had some NAPA Legend Batteries still test with 80% of the CCA rating after 8 years.

@[email protected] - Make sure your battery tester has a printer.  It seems so stupid but I have found that customers are far more likely to believe a piece of paper than they will their trusted auto repair professional.  I have a like my Midtronics MDX-350P (printer).  I bought a Snap-On (Midtronics) tester with a better, more graphic printout but I can't remember the model number.

I use AllData Manage Elite local installation (NO cloud based anything) and it will integrate with two of the three major local parts sources I use (NEVER AutoZone) but recently it stopped allowing me to do electronic ordering.  I can look up parts, add to the invoice and check stock but it returns an error when I try to order.  However my main parts catalog is NAPA ProLink.  It is the hands down BEST online catalog and has been the benchmark for years.  I do have to manually transfer prices, part numbers and description but splitting the screen to have both Manage and ProLink side by side makes it just a minor inconvenience. 

Because there is nearly zero support or updates for disc based Manage Elite I am seriously looking into a different shop management program.  Only this time it will interface with ProLink. 

So am I correct, this is cloud based software?  Why?

The problem with cloud based systems is that the owner of the server owns the data, NOT the customer/user who created the data.  And as the owner of the server and the data that entity can do with the data as it wishes regardless of any "privacy" policy/statement to the contrary.

I joined the NAPA AutoCare Center program as soon after opening my shop as I could.  There is an annual membership cost but the quarterly volume rebates usually more than pays it back.  Add to that the Nationwide Peace of Mind warranty that is recognized as the gold standard and you have real value for your customers.  The local shop reimbursement program pays 75% of the labor guide at your current shop labor rate up to $250.00.  It's not great, but it's better than nothing.  Meanwhile I refuse to utilize anything from Advance Auto Parts because of their "Warranty" reimbursement, which was a joke at best.  Meanwhile, my experience with the labor warranty reimbursement from my local independent parts suppliers is like yours.  Wait for months, then get denied because it's "never" the part's fault.   Or like the last name brand fuel pump installed in a P30 van there was only one labor guide time and then it was for a van with an access panel in the floor. The labor time to remove the tank was more than to replace the fuel tank.  And guess what the parts manufacturer wanted to pay?  With NAPA it's no problem.  Well, almost.  I have had only one, a clutch and the labor time was something like 4.5 hours.  My first call was answered by someone who was either new or didn't want to be bothered.  He flat out denied the claim because the labor amount was above their limit.  I called back and asked for a supervisor.  He wanted to find a solution.  He told me that they had the $250 limit, that 75% of the labor rate I was requesting was something like $272.  If I was willing to accept the $250 he'd approve it without a problem but that was all he could do.  Well $250 was a lot better than $0 so I agreed and thanked him for trying to find a solution instead of simply saying "no" like the first guy.  Add to that, Sonsio, the company that administers the NAPA Peace of Mind Warranty also administers the CarQuest warranty as well as Federated and other warranties.  Since none of those brands have a presence in my area, when they have a nationwide warranty claim, Sonsio calls my shop to ask if I will help, which I always say yes to. 

But like Joe said, make sure your profit margins are sufficient to absorb the costs of the inevitable warranty claims.  No matter what supplier, no matter how skilled your technicians are, mistakes happen, defects slip through, that is why there is warranty.