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partsman

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  1. partsman

    Nitrogen in tires

    That was an incredible post, well here goes... First, I am not actually a Nitrogen "Salesman". We are a manufacturer that helped create this industry with over 10 years of research in pneumatics, software engineering and finally the fabrication of a very sophisticated piece of equipment. Additionally, we hold patents, manufacture and distribute over 100 other items and products for automotive, aviation and the rail industry. Many of these unique items have won dozens of national and international awards for engineering, innovation and top products of the year. (I.E. Ceramlub, Pastelub, the Silencer, BrakeSoap, A/C Stop Leak Plus, Oil Filter Magnets, RadStrips, Premier Nitrogen Systems and many more). In other words, we have paid our dues. I guess I'm shocked that someone would not believe proven, scientific DATA... actually the laws of physics ? I knew that some would not understand the calculations, but I put them in the post for those that might. I did not make it up by the way. These are the most respected men in their fields, not to mention test results from Consumer Reports, NHTSA, the US Government, Firestone, Goodyear, Michelin and many other industry leaders. I'm sure you are unaware of the sales numbers but the top end N2 unit we offer shops has surpassed over 5,000 units in just the last 3 years. As a jest rebuttal, I really don't need to "sell a unit"... to make my day. I actually did enjoy your ranting and the story regarding the Tornado was inspiring, are you aware that CR, Motor, Mark Salem and many others sent out reports that refuted all clams on that item. Obviously you see them because there are unscrupulous mechanic and or dumb ones that haven't got a clue. As I have stated many time in past posts... I have be involved in automotive for over 35 years, do training at the OE levels and have a vehicle engineering background. What I bring to this forum is knowledge so please use it as you see fit, just don't short change your customer based on preexisting biases. My mantra is... When in doubt test it for yourself! Sincerely, Gary P.S. Note that I had not posted on N2 for nearly a year. Obviously I was not pushing our product but was responding to some comments I felt needed addressing.
  2. partsman

    Nitrogen in tires

    You are getting off the subject and issue with the comments you posted. Who's fault is it that a consumer does not know what TPMS is? It is the job of a shop owner or SR to educate the consumer on the importance of safety issues related to their car or truck. You might not be aware of this fact but deaths from tire blowouts have decreased about 30% since the mandatory installation of TPMS on US passengers vehicles in 2007. Would you want to be responsible for the death of someone because they say they don't want to spend the money needed to replace a dead sensor? Of course not, you would tell them TPM Sensors are a mandatory safety part and the part needs to be replaced if they want to maintain the integrity of the system and vehicle. Regarding the repair of a tire that hit something and blew out, just fill a new one with air and get them back on the road. Why do you want to make a problem out of this when it is an opportunity? As I stated before, if there are limited machines in an area this situation is going to bring a customer to the shops that are smart enough to have nitrogen service. How can that be bad for the shop? How can that be bad for the customer? You get to look at the car for other services and the customer get at check up safety components and more. If you received Nitrogen with a new a new or used vehicle, I guarantee you will want it again when you buy new tires. Numbers don't lie, over 75% of first time users ask for N2 when they buy new tires. Why? Because they ride better, they require less maintenance, they get better mileage, they are safer, they last longer and their TPMS does not go crazy when temps spike or dip. If you are worried you can't sell N2, bundle it with other services that are of equal or greater value. (I.E. We have an Emergency Roadside Assistance program at half the retail price of AAA. You simply offer your customer a bundle that included an oil change, or a brake service, or a ???, etc, etc, plus give them the N2 service for FREE. Who would turn that down? You make more on all the services because the Motor Club has a perceived value of over $100, but cost you less than $10.) I feel it is a tragedy consumers are not educated on new technology, especially when it involves lives. Would you allow a customer to disable the ABS system if it had a problem and they did not have the money to fix it? We all need to be aware that it is our job, it is our responsibility, to help our customers. I liken it to being a doctor... the owner of the vehicle brings his patient to you because you are the expert with the proper training to bring the vehicle back to proper health. Sorry for being blunt, but this is a more than selling parts and changing oil. Sincerely, Gary P.S. As a note, some of our best customers are in rural areas of this country. They bring in the new tech first, so they become the experts in that marketplace. GWR Products GWRauto.com 1(800) 266-4497
  3. partsman

    Nitrogen in tires

    Sorry, but I am perplexed. I can't figure out why some are fighting so hard on this proven science. The arguments you are using have all been disproved by thousand upon thousands of on the road tests by NHTSA, Private Fleets, Government Fleets and Military vehicles. Walmart is even going to N2 because they proved they could save millions of dollars on fuel and tires each and every year, while reducing pollution. How can can anyone argue about saving money, reducing pollution, reducing our carbon footprint and most importantly... saving lives. Just because a tech does not understand a particular science, it does not mean that it does not work. They need to at least investigate the research and data that has been collected and reevualate their thinking on the subject, on a regular basis, as with any part of the car. Graham's Law was mentioned as some kind of proof that N2 vs O2 is not that relative to the tire industry. Well the scientific community disagrees, based on miss application of the law. I have included one of explanations of this widely accepted erroneous applications, explained by a highly respected Dr. in the field. (Note: This is a serious discussion and needs to be read throughly, although it puts to bed the arguments that N2 inflation is not a benefit to a tire.) Are Nitrogen Molecules Really Larger Than Oxygen Molecules? The correct answer, with respect to "permeation" is yes. Graham' Law Explained: The Difference between Effusion and Permeation... There's often confusion associated with the molecular size, molecular weight and permeation properties of oxygen and nitrogen molecules, and GNI is often called to task to explain why nitrogen actually migrates (permeates) out through the rubber of a tire slower than does oxygen. This is a difficult scientific principal to understand so here is a logical documented explanation of the reasoning, based on the expertise of Dr. Keith Murphy: "Effusion" calculations are not appropriate for "permeation" of gas molecules through materials, such as the rubber of tire walls. There is a fundamental difference in transport occurring through "effusion" and transport occurring through "permeation". ""Effusion would be appropriate, if the O2 and N2 molecules were passing through a relatively large passage way through the tire wall, such as a leak. Graham's Law for "effusion" applies ONLY if the exit through which the molecules pass is relatively large compared to the size of the molecules and does NOT obstruct or constrain one molecule from passing through relative to the other molecule. O2 and N2 molecules are only slightly different in molecular size but both are very small. Thus, to constrain one molecule's (e.g., molecule of type A) passage relative to the other's (e.g., molecule of type passage, that passage way size must be fairly close in dimension to the sizes of the molecules themselves. Graham's Law does not apply if the passage way is very small, as occurs for dimensions of passage ways in-between the polymer chains in a solid rubber. Where the dimensions between the polymer chains do indeed constrain passage of the larger size molecule, which is actually N2, compared to less constraint on the smaller size molecule, which is actually O2. It is often mistakenly assumed that "molecular size" correlates directly with "molecular weight". O2 does have a greater molecular weight (32) than N2 (28), but O2 is actually smaller in size. Thus, O2 fits through the relatively tight passage ways between polymer chains in the rubber more easily than does N2. The difference is size between O2 and N2 is very small, only about 0.3 times 10 to the -10th meters (0.00000000003 meters). Among the various descriptions of the sizes of molecules, that most applicable to transport phenomena is called the "kinetic diameter" of molecules. The kinetic diameter is a reflection of the smallest effective dimension of a given molecule. It is easy to visualize that a given molecule can have more than one dimension, which characterizes its size, if the molecule is not spherical. O2 and N2 are diatomic molecules (two atoms joined by a chemical bond or bonds), not spheres in shape but rather cylindrical in shape, akin to the shape of a tiny jelly bean. Thus, a "length" dimension of the cylindrical shape is a larger dimension than the smaller "waistline" diameter of the cylindrical shape. In transport phenomena, the molecule with the smallest effective waistline diameter is that which behaves as the smallest molecule, i.e., has the smallest kinetic diameter. Literature reports of kinetic diameters for O2 and N2 molecules, derived from several different types of experimental measurements, give slightly different values, but all show that O2 has a slightly smaller diameter than N2. The following examples expressed in Angstrom units demonstrate this (one Angstrom unit is 10 to the -10th power meters, i.e., one-ten-billionth of a meter): from gas viscosity data, O2 2.96 and N2 3.16 (difference 0.20); from van der Waal's interaction data, O2 2.90 and N2 3.14 (difference 0.24); from molecular refraction data, O2 2.34 and N2 2.40 (difference 0.06). Other experiments, less applicable to transport situations, such as from closest packing, when the two molecules exist in a frozen solid state at very low temperatures, still show O2 to be a smaller size than N2 (O2 3.75 and N2 4.00, difference 0.25). The reason that O2, despite a larger MW 32, has a smaller diameter than N2 MW 28, lies in the electronic structure of the molecules. As indicated by quantum mechanical theory of molecules, the electrons of a molecule form a diffuse "cloud" surrounding the nuclei of the atoms in the molecule. The electron cloud around the oxygen nuclei in the O2 molecule is smaller, more compact in size, due to attractive electrostatic interactions between the electrons in the cloud and the greater positive charge of the nuclei of the O atoms in the O2 molecule. Each oxygen atom has 8 protons in its nucleus, while each nitrogen atom has only 7 protons in its nucleus. Thus, the overall size of the electron cloud of the O2 molecule is smaller than for N2, in part because its electron cloud is drawn in closer to the O nuclei by he greater positive charge on the O nuclei. The dimension of the molecule's electron cloud defines the size and shape for a given type of molecule. When one molecule bumps into another molecule, the outer-most extent of the electron clouds of each molecule repel each other in that local vicinity of the contact between the molecules. Each colliding molecule's electron cloud experiences a repulsion, due to the proximity to the like electrical charge of electrons around the other molecule in the collision. Since like electrical charges repel each other (like-repels-like), the electrostatic interaction between the electron clouds of the colliding molecules is repulsive. That repulsion effectively defines the size of the molecules. O2 "permeates" approximately 3-4 times faster than does N2 through a typical rubber, as is used in tires, primarily because O2 has a slightly smaller effective molecular size than does N2. A relationship that governs "permeation" is based on Fick's Law of Diffusion and Henry's Law of Solubilities, which takes into account the relative sizes of the molecules and their sizes compared to the very small passage way dimensions in the solid material (such as a rubber) through which the molecules "permeate". Combining Fick's and Henry's Laws yields the overall equation governing permeation of small molecules, such as gases, in material, such as rubbers and other plastics. Let's call the rate of permeation of gas (i), Ji, J-sub-i, which is simply the volumetric flux of gas permeation per unit of time. Conveniently used units of Ji are cubic centimeters of gas per second, or cm^3/s. Consider a sheet of the rubber, such as a section of the tire wall. That flux of gas permeating through a material is directly proportional to the first three factors, below, and inversely to the fourth factor, below: 1. the area, call it A (in units of square centimeters, cm^2) of the sample of the rubber - More flux of gas would occur, if the area were larger, if everything else were the same; next, 2. the driving force for transport across the wall, which is the difference in concentration of gas (i) across the tire wall - for convenience with gases, a nearly exactly correct measure of this is the difference in partial pressures (pi) of that gas (i) on the two sides of the tire wall (i.e., pi inside minus pi outside) - Obviously, a higher partial pressure (pressure units are cmHg, centimeters of mercury, and remember that 76 cmHg = 1 atmosphere = 14.7 psi) inside versus outside means there is more driving force to promote transport across the tire wall; then next, 3. the intrinsic permeability P, call it Pij, or P-sub-i-sub-j, is the "permeability coefficient" for the particular material (j) for that type of gas (i) - Note that various materials, i.e., different types of rubbers or plastics will permeate O2 faster or slower depending on the details of solid state structures of the materials, and different types of gases will permeate each material faster or slower depending on the relative sizes of the gas molecules, as well as on how soluble the gas is in the solid material; then lastly, 4. the thickness L (in units of cm) of the material - you can see that if the tire wall were, say, twice as thick, one would expect half the permeation rate (flux, cm^3/s), all other things being equal. Combine these four terms, and you get the permeation equation: Ji = [ Pij x A x (pi inside - pi outside) ] / L flux = permeability coefficient of gas (i) in material (j) of the tire wall multiplied by area multiplied by the partial pressure difference for gas (i) across the tire wall divided by the thickness of the tire wall. Similarly, for the other gas (m), its flux would be: Jm = [ Pmj x A x (pm inside - pm outside) ] / L since it would have a different permeability coefficient in that same rubber (j) and a different driving force across the tire wall. So, the fluxes for different gases will be different, depending on the relative magnitudes of the permeability coefficients of the two different types of gas molecules and the relative concentrations (partial pressures) of the two types of molecules on each side of the tire wall (i.e., inside vs outside). From the early part of this discussion, you will now recognize that Pi, where gas (i) is O2, is greater than Pm, where gas (m) is N2, principally because O2 has a smaller kinetic diameter than N2 and thus O2 has a larger permeability coefficient than does N2 - actually O2 has a permeability coefficient in a typical tire rubber material, which is about 3-4 times that of N2 in the same material. Permeation of O2 and N2 is primarily determined by size effects, because at normal temperatures and pressures relevant to the discussions of tires, these gases behave almost perfectly as Ideal Gases. As such, the differences in solubilities of O2 and N2 in most rubbers and plastics are too small to contribute to differences in their permeability coefficients. The differences observed are essentially solely due to the slight differences in the size of O2 relative to N2. In case you wish to do your own calculations, the units for P (the permeability coefficients) most often used in the technical literature are: [ cm^3 x cm ] / [ s x cm^2 x cmHg ] and for convenience, a standard unit of permeability is called the Barrer, after Richard Barrer, one of the early pioneers in studies of permeation in materials, such as rubbers and plastics. One Barrer unit is: 1 times 10 to the minus 10th power [cm^3 x cm]/[s x cm^2 x cmHg] In Barrers, for a typical rubber material, the permeability coefficient P, is dependant on temperature, but at 25C (77F) for O2 is about 10 and for N2 is about 3. I hope this helps clarify why O2 permeates faster through rubber than does N2 and a major aspect of why it is a good idea to significantly reduce the amount of O2 used to fill tires by replacing most of the O2 in air with enriched N2. Since N2 permeates through the tire rubber more slowly than would O2, using enriched nitrogen instead of air for tire filling contributes to better maintenance of the proper inflation pressure for the tire. Better pressure maintenance contributes to reduced tire wear, so that tires last longer and tire replacement costs are reduced. A simple but approximately correct explanation of this lies in the mechanics of the flexing of tire walls. If proper inflation pressure is maintained, the tire wall most effectively bears the weight of the vehicle. If pressure is allowed to fall too low, extra flexing that occurs as the vehicle bounces somewhat along the road causes excessive mechanical fatigue of the structure of the tire. Similar to flexing a wire coat hanger, this fatigue can weaken the tire faster than would be the case were it kept inflated to a pressure more consistent with that intended in its design. Dr. Keith Murphy Air Products and Chemicals, Inc. St. Louis, MO If you are still following along, I would like to mention a few other items... There was a comment about whether or not the tire would deflate fast with air vs N2. A few years ago Consumers Report did a very simple test to see what was true and what was false, regarding this issue. The test had nothing to do with cost vs value, it simply was done to find out the answer to the question... does air leak out faster than N2. Here are the details... Our recent blog post, "Tires - Nitrogen Air Loss Study", looked at using nitrogen in tires. So far, it has generated a lot of interest. In fact, that post has received more comments than almost any other. Among the comments were many questions--more than could be addressed in a simple comments format. Senior tire engineer and program leader Gene Petersen, (Gene Petersen is a genuine tire guy (aka nut) with about 30 years of experience in the tire field, first working for Armstrong Rubber Company and then for Pirelli as a test engineer. He has worked on passenger, light-truck, medium-truck, and even agricultural tires, assessing their performance and trying to measure their strengths and weaknesses. For more than a decade at Consumer Reports, Gene has applied his expertise to testing and reporting on the performance of tires for passenger cars and light trucks. As Gene says, tires define the personality of the vehicle--without a good or proper tire, people often shortchange their safety and their car's capability. When not testing tires, Gene helps out with the CR auto engineers, evaluating new cars and trucks. This gives him a glimpse of the latest tire trends that will be affecting the replacement tire market.) For quick background on the nitrogen test: Consumer Reports wanted to find out if nitrogen is worth the price for passenger vehicles, so we evaluated pairs of 31 tire models of H- and V-speed rated, all-season tires used in our tread wear test from 2006. We filled one tire per model with air and the other with nitrogen. The test was quite simple: fill and set the inflation pressure at room temperature to 30 psi (pounds per square inch); set the tire outdoors for one year; and then recheck the inflation pressure at room temperature after a one year period. The test started on September 20, 2006 and the final measurements were taken on September 20, 2007. The results show nitrogen does reduce pressure loss over time, the reduction was a 1.3 psi difference from air-filled tires. The average loss of air-filled tires was 3.5 psi from the initial 30 pressure setting. Nitrogen-filled tires lost an average of 2.2 psi from the initial 30 psi setting. Note that all tires lost air pressure regardless of the inflation medium, so consumers should check their tires' air pressure routinely. Additionally, no evaluation was done to assess the aging claim. Note that this test is very simple but it does prove what we have been saying for years... N2 gas will maintain tire pressure longer than straight air. This is a test that definately addresses the migration of molecules through the tire wall issue. It proves that in a static condition, removes chance of loss through most any other outlet, there is a factor of permeability involved. As to one other comment, I can't understand why someone would want other service centers in their area to have the same service. Would this not create competition and a lower price as time goes on? Likewise, if you are the only guy in town, wouldn't an N2 inflated vehicle have to come to you for a top off? Testing has been done and there is a correlation between the number of visits to a shop and the type of gas in a tire. The average number of yearly visits, for the first 5 years of a vehicle's life, doubles when the tires are inflated with Nitrogen. Are you still willing to pass up this free opportunity to have the vehicle back in your shop, your competition my not? I don't know what more we can say on this subject as every argument had been debunked, by scientific testing, field testing and long term on the road testing. Nitrogen is not a gimmick, has absolutely no negatives, is safer, reduces pollution, saves lives, saves money, saves fuel, more comfortable to drive on, and much more. Additionally, I have not even touched on TPMS and how Nitrogen benefits them in numerous ways. Thanks for reviewing the data and tech, I appreciate the time you spent. I likewise hope it has helped those open to continuing their education in our field, this service will be a major issue in 2011. Sincerely, Gary GWR Products 1(800 266-4497 P.S. I am curious about how shops are going to service the millions of vehicles that will be stopping in, with N2 from the factory or a new car dealership. Please post your thoughts and plans on how you will balance, rotate and align those customers, I am curious. Thanks
  4. partsman

    Nitrogen in tires

    Guys, I really can't believe your comments as its been a year since I posted rebuttal answers to the most disputed arguments regarding Nitrogen. We are far beyond what I said now, as over 40% of the dealerships and nearly 20% of the private shops in America now have nitrogen. I would love to address the issues of the above three posts, but most of them have already be covered. I will say, concerning the info from GM, aren't they the company that said you did not need to flush brake fluid about 10 years ago but now highly recommend it? Regarding the rims and other parts leaking, read my web site and the tech discussion on rubber and you will learn that 70% of the air that leaks out of a tire "goes through the rubber side wall". The smaller molecule with pass through and the nitrogen will not, base on the comparison of the rubber striation configuration of tire molecules. When these powerful molecules of corrosive oxygen line up one by one and begin their march through that 1/2" or so of rubber... they actually eat it alive, slowly, day by day. We on the other hand, keep feeding it by putting in more oxygen when it get 10 pounds low. Ouch! that is not to smart on several fronts. Did you know that a tire, just 8-10 pounds low, will operate at double the temperature it does when correctly inflated? Gentlemen, this is science... not mystical smoke and mirrors or a conspiracy to make money! You are going to need to study and let loose of the old wives tales that some seem to still believe in. If you read this and still have doubts about N2 in tires, I must feel sorry for the consumers that are going to miss out on the benefits of this valuable service. J.M. Baldwin of FORD MOTOR Co, (Baldwin, JM, Bauer, DR, Ellwood, KE, Passenger Tires Inflated With Nitrogen Age Slower, Rubber and Plastics News, September 20, 2004) clearly established that passenger tires inflated with nitrogen age slower. In his work, "tires inflated with 96 percent and 99.9 percent nitrogen were oven aged at 60C (140F) for three to twelve weeks. For comparison, tires inflated with either air (80%/20% or 50%/50%) nitrogen/oxygen were oven aged alongside the nitrogen inflated tires". "The tires inflated with more than 95 percent nitrogen do not appear to change very much from the new tires even after 12 weeks in the oven, whereas the tires inflated with the oxygenated media change dramatically, even after three weeks in the oven." Further analysis validated Baldwin's conclusions that, "...tires inflated with more than 95 percent nitrogen do not appear to change very much from new tires." After twelve weeks of this very aggressive laboratory aging condition, Baldwin concluded that, at 12 weeks tires inflated with 96 percent nitrogen......the beginning of oxidative degradation can be seen. Nitrogen inflated tires, however degrade far slower than tires inflated with the oxygenated media. It is based upon this 96 percent nitrogen finding that... "it is not recommended to exceed 4 or 5 percent oxygen in the tire". Other Baldwin conclusions were "the oxidation of the steel belt rubber is truly driven from the contained air pressure .... the skim may be oxidized slightly from the outside when nitrogen filled, but the rate of degradation is significantly lower than when the tire is filled with air" Baldwin demonstrated that the peel strength changes in the 95 percent nitrogen exposed samples progressed at a much slower rate than the samples exposed to air. The fact that he was still able to see very slow oxidation in the 95 percent nitrogen exposed samples amplifies the expectation of a loss of the nitrogen durability benefits as one goes to lower levels of purity. Baldwin states: "The overall conclusion of the study is: When nitrogen is used as the inflation media, the change in rubber properties is significantly slowed down or even halted." To get the full impact of the research done on N2 tire inflation, please visit this link to see what Goodyear, Uniroyal, Volvo, Exxon, BF Goodrich, Michelin, Firestone, along with dozens of other major players in the tire industry really said on the subject. Likewise you can review what Mr. Harold J Herzlich wrote over several years of published technical papers, he is only known as the "Godfather" of rubber analysis. (Note: Be sure to take a look at his credentials at the bottom of the page) http://www.nitrogent...en%20purity.htm It's up to you now, I hope we can all finally move on with this matter. Sincerely, Gary GWR Products 1(800) 266-4497
  5. partsman

    Fluid Flush Fallacy

    I too have seen the articles in other publications the last few weeks, it obviously has a consumer flavor to it. As I see it we have two options, live with it an don't complain, or personally get involved and do something. I love the idea of Gonzo writing an article to vent the shops side of this but be sure to include a real solution. Actually all the arguments on both sides of this fence could easily be addressed and quelled if the shops/owners/technicians religiously used fluid testing products already approved by MAP, BAR, SAE, OEM's and Vehicle Manufacturers. How can we keep letting our industry get beat up, when the solution is right at our finger tips. If you test a vehicle regularly and show the results to the customer month after month, there is no way they are going to think service centers are ripping them off. They will have seen the fluid change with there own eyes and if they still do not think they need a fluid exchange, then they deserve the inevitable trail of broken parts that will follow. I teach this everywhere I go, fluid testing is the only way to know what condition a specific vehicle's fluid is in. It can't be found in the glove box manual, it can't be found on the end of Goobers finger stuck in diff oil, it can't be found in a Dab a Lube plastic comparator tool, it can't be determined be smelled, it can't be decided by looking at how dark it is, etc, etc, etc. I must be tested or we will forever remain in the cave man times. Sorry to be blunt, but I can't believe an owner or tech has the gall to say they don't need test products in their shop or that they don't think they work. Do they think they don't need to do a blood test to determine their cholesterol level, or need an xray to see if they have a broken bone after a fall? Come on, the tests we now have available took decades to develop and millions of dollars to bring to market place. There is no question they work and are accurate, they have been certified by all major controlling agencies. Step up and start proving you are a professional and that you are able to accurately diagnosis a customers vehicle. Teach them that fluids do go bad in todays pressure cooker engine compartments. Use the three OE Approved fluid testing products available today and tomorrow you will be benefiting from the increased volume of flushes that will come your way. There is no easier close than the one the customer makes himself. Thanks for your thoughts, Gary Here are the products and links to which I refer above. Please let me know if you have any questions on them, you can call me any time at 1(800) 266-4497. As always, GWR will offer special discounts on these essential tools to all members of the group. www.FluidTesting.com www.FluidRxtest.com www.RadStrips.com www.BrakeTestStrip.com
  6. Hi Dave, It was great talking with you Wednesday evening, I really enjoyed it. I will get in contact with our factory oversea and find out were our software engineer is right now. Send me what you can on the car and I'll pass it on so they can give me the latest tech. Have a good one... Gary

  7. partsman

    Brake Cleaner Hazards

    Hi Curt, Thanks so much for posting your experience with our brake products, I really appreciate you taking the time to let the members of the group know we have viable solutions to service problems. As to your question on using the Brake Soap during disassembly, I have used it for that work with good results. I would base the decision on whether or not the parts are caked with heavy, greasy contaminants. Our specially formulated soap is not intended to cut heavy grease but rather to go deep in to the pours of the cast iron rotors and drums, to demagnetize and pull out the loose metal parts. If the parts are really dirty (greasy) us a serious degrease type product before the cutting and honing process. As a note, if the rotor or drum is rusted and dry, I highly recommend using a simple sand blaster (table top or cabinet style, etc) to remove rust and clean surface to a shine. From there you can rinse in our brake soap liquid before going to the lathe. It is imperative you have a shiny surface in the hat areas (adapter mating surfaces), before setting up on the lathe, otherwise you will induce run-out and create an out of spec part. If a shop is still using brake clean to prepare a rotor for assembly, they are behind the curve nearly 10 years. In tests done over 7 years ago at Aimco (largest mfg of brake rotors), it was determined a soap and water cleaning of rotors or drums removed 40% to 60% more of the loose metal introduced during the cutting process. The properly washed rotors, the ones cleaned with soap and water, retained less than 3% metal while the brake cleaned rotor retained 25% to 35%. If metal particles are left in the rotor or drum surface, when they are heated during the braking cycle, the metal will work it way out and impregnate the pad surface. This will case excess heat to build during the stop but of more concern is the chance for noise. Please call me and get some Brake Soap, you will never go back to expensive brake clean. Better, you will be providing your customer with the best brake job possible. Gary 1(800) 266-4497
  8. partsman

    New All the help I can get

    Great info Gary what do you have starting at $500? Hi Dave, Sorry for not writing yesterday, I was having a problem loging in to the forum. As to N2 systems, you have a range of between $500 (entry level) and about $5,000 (top of the line). I would like to send you several but I have attached one here. Please send me your email address and I will send the additional info you will want to review. Thanks, Gary [email protected] Email me (Please let me know if aren't able to see this atachment.) N2 Single Filling Station (Kit).pdf
  9. partsman

    TPMS tools

    It is a well know fact that Japanese and other Asian vehicles are among the most difficult to reset, the reason is the availability of quality software. Being that ATEQ is the worlds largest OE manufacturer of TPMS equipment for new vehicles, for original vehicle setup at a factory, they have first access to software over all the other non OE tool suppliers. It's a know fact that many of the aftermarket re-set tool suppliers have to rely on buying sensors and then backward engineer them to try and retrieve the operating software. ATEQ's VT55 tool can re-set and upload the TPMS data on more vehicles than any other tool on the market and at twice the speed. Better yet, the update subscription won't cost you an arm and a leg, it's less than half the yearly fee charged by Bartec. www.ateqTPMStool.com When you're ready for the OE TPMS tool, or deside to update limited equipment, we are able to offer special discounts to all ASO members through an in house program. Please call me for details, I'd be happy to explain how it works. Thanks, Gary 1(800) 266-4497 www.GWRauto.com P.S. I wanted to mention that we just finished our new TPMS Sensor Assortment Kit, this program is revolutionary. We have both OE replacement sensors and our patented Universal TPMS Sensor, so you have a choice for your customer. These are not the aftermarket versions so common at local auto parts stores, rather they are built by the OE supplier to many of the largest Asian car manufacturers. You won't have to wait for delivery and pay higher prices for the odd sensors not easily available. www.universalTPMSsensor.com
  10. partsman

    New All the help I can get

    As Joe mentioned, keeping up with technology is vital to our success. Regarding the comments on TPMS and N2, I'd like to emphasize how extremely important understanding the technology really is. In our training classes we always stress the importance of not only know how to do it correctly, but also why a particular process or procedure is necessary. I think we all have little respect for the technician that won't take the time to research and get training for a service, before blasting into it. Regarding Nitrogen, some of the comments above are correct... N2 has virtually zero moisture and therefore is the perfect companion for TPMS. No matter how many dryers you put after a compressor, within economic reason of what a shop can spend, you will never get close to what Nitrogen can do for you. Additionally, the older generator systems did not create as pure of a gas as they do now. Our newest unit can produce 12 cfm with 99.75% moisture free gas and at a purity of about 99%. You can not afford to buy bottles when this type system is now available. (I.E. The cost per vehicle is only about .50 cents with a new style generator, whereas the cost of bottled N2 can be as high a $4 per vehicle.) When you discuss why someone would want to sell Nitrogen, think about it as service but more so as a tool to bring the customer back to the shop. What is the number one item that "needs" on going service, although most drivers don't every think about it? The answer is of course tire pressure! So forget the cost of getting into Nitrogen, the customer will come in more often and that gives you the opportunity to sell other services. Additionally, if you don't have Nitrogen available, how will you service vehicles that come in with it? You won't be able to balance, rotate, align, etc and that could put you out of business on some services. NOTE: "A recent study by the European division of tire maker Bridgestonefound that 93.5 percent of cars in Europe have under-inflated tires, wasting some 2.14 billion gallons of high-priced, polluting fuel every year. Analysts believe that a similar percentage of North Americans are driving around on under-inflated tires as well." What an opportunity for shops that are on the ball! GWR has taken the wide approach and has developed simple systems for small shops staring at only about $500, so there is really no boundary to having this service at every shop. We likewise have the most advanced N2 systems on the planet, if your operation wants the fastest and most economical service options. www.PremierNitrogen.com Regarding the Road Hazard Protection Programs there were seveal comments, so this may help clarify. Factory direct resale Motor Clubs are greatest value to come along for the shop, since disc brakes. You can use it in a multitude of ways to further enhance the value of your operation and to again, bring the customer back to the shop more often. I constantly try to teach owners they need to use their head and not their hands to make a shop more profitable, Nitrogen and Motor Clubs are some of the newest and easiest ways to do this. i.e. Some scenarios where our Premier Motor Club "ERA" cards can be used... 1. Mrs. Jones, you have been a loyal customer for 10 years and I want to say thank you again. Additionally I'd like to give you a valuable gift that I believe should be in every drivers wallet or purse, our Premier Motor Club program. I know you drive alone sometimes so I would feel better knowing that you are protected and that you have away to easily get your car towed back to us if any unexpected trouble occurs. 2. Mr. Smith, your brake service today is going to be a little more extensive than we initially discussed, here is what my technicians found after inspection...... I realize this is more than you anticipated so we would like to give you a free gift, to help offset some of the additional costs. Our Premier Motor Club will bring you a full year of protection, just like AAA, but will in addition give you up to $150 worth of tire replacement protection and an additional10 miles of towing. This is our gift to you for your patronage and loyalty over the years. 3. Joe, I understand you are concerned about the repair bill for the new cooling system as it was unexpected. Unfortunately we need to replace the radiator, water pump and hoses to get you back on the road. If we could add in a valuable, unique, vehicle protection program for no additional cost would you be OK with allowing us to do the work today? Our Premier Motor Club offers you services that companies like AAA charge over $100 for, or don't offer at all. Not only does ours have unlimited battery jumps, key lockout service, gas and fluid deliveries, tire repairs and more, it also has additional free towing miles and $150 worth of free tire replacment. And again, we would be included this free of charge with your repair. 4. At the end of the one year term, the customer will get an email letting them know their Premier Motor Club is about to expire and that they should being the vehicle back in for a courtesy inspection and renewal. This gives the shop an additional opportunity to have the car in their shop and to hopefully sell additional service it may need. If nothing is wrong or required at that time, you can simply sell them a new card at what every priced you want to charge. How can you put a price on this type of marketing support? It would easily be worth ten to twenty times what it costs. Based on the groups participation and support, we would like to offer a special reduced minimum initial order on the activation cards. We normally require a shop be involved with the Nitrogen program or purchase 50 minimum, but for this trial deal we would set up 15 cards at just $8.95 each. This would be a great way to try out the program while investing very little initial money. www.PremierMotorClub.com Regarding the TPMS, everyone will be doing this service for years to come, so we all need to understand it. In our classes with have found it imperative to use manuals for the specs on the various sensors, and not to rely on memory. For example, we just concluded a training class arranged for one of the largest UTI center in America, not only for for the students but mainly for the teachers. Most everyone was unfamiliar with the true workings of TPMS and found they really needed this class presented by our certified TPMP teacher from TIA (Tire Industry Association). We extensively use and recommend a particular TIA guide I want all of you to get, before you attempt to dive into this service. Please follow the link and read more about it... TirePressure Monitoring System (TPMS) Relearn Chart Everyone must understand that there is a procedure and science to these parts and you can not haphazardly start working on them without training. Of bigger interest is the fact that you will be working on more TPMS than you can imaging in just the next year or less. Why? Take a look at the statistic and you will understand what is just around the corner for shops and service centers. Adding up the installed TPMS systems since the mandate in 2007 to the few miscellaneous models using them before that time and you come up with about ¼ billion sensors. As if that's not staggering enough about ¼ of those will need to be replaced in the next 12 months due to battery failure, they are near or over their 5 year life expectancy. Are you ready? Just using simple math the numbers are $20,000 to $50,000 worth of new sensor business for every shop in America, this year alone. If you don't have the training and specification sheets, the right learnand reset tools, along with a simple and easily accessible inventory at your finger tips... will you be able to tap into this incredible revenue source? I again like to mention we would be happy to help the members of the group with free training and special prices on all the needed relearn equipment, our new universal TPMS sensors and clone tool, plus our reseal replacement hardware kits. www.ateqTPMStool.com www.universalTPMSsensor.com I hope this information is useful, please call me if you would like to talk more about any of the above items. Gary 1(800)266-4497 www.GWRauto.com [email protected] P.S. Here are some more of the the technical problems associated withTPMS service. Since the trend in factory wheels is to eliminate the outer flange for appearance, technicians will have to use tape weights to dynamically balance tire and wheel assemblies. The inside flange hasn't changed (yet) so any computer balancer can easily perform a static balance, but ride disturbances are easier to identify with modern suspensionsystems so the likelihood of comebacks is higher using that approach. As if the slowdown from handling sensors isn't enough, dealerswithout advanced balancing equipment that makes tape weights easier to install will be forced to add a few more minutes to each set offour tires. That's just the start of the equipment list that every dealer will have to follow in order to handle TPMS. For instance, the growing number of sensor monitoring/recalibrating tools will play an important role in every operation. A dealer must know if the sensoror TPMS was transmitting and operational before a technician touched said vehicle and notify the customer. It's equally important to know that the system remains operational after the service has been completed and communicate that with the consumer. Then there's the fact that each vehicle manufacturer uses a different everything! From grommets and o-rings to replacement sensors, there are very few, if any, consistencies between domestic and foreign automobiles. To make matters worse, each individual manufacturer has multiple configurations and recalibration procedures within their own models. So the bottom line is nothing is standardized, except for the fact that all valve stem sensors use a special nickel-plated valve core. The special valve core is the only component or procedure that is standard for all valve stem sensors. Dealers will have to refer to the vehicle manufacturer for all TPMS service requirements after that. While this dependence on the car makers and lack of standardization seems troubling, there is good news on the horizonfor TIA members and the industry. General Motors had a representative attend the Tires at Two seminar for TPMS during the Performance Tires & Wheels/SEMA Show and he provided everyone, including myself, with valuable information. He made an excellent point when hecommented that from the standpoint of GM, it's in their best interest for independent tire dealers to have the correct information on TPMS because it ultimately affects customer satisfaction with a new vehicle purchase. TIA is utilizing the contacts within GM to help establish an on-going relationship with all of the new car and sensor manufacturers so we can make sure our members have the proper guidelines for each model year as soon as they are available. 'TIA'snew TPMS Training Program is just the start of the learning processand members who jump on board right away will be better prepared to service the tires and wheels of the future before the "future" is actually here.' byKevin Rohlwing (TIA)
  11. partsman

    New All the help I can get

    I wanted to mention you can get more info on the Nitrogen and TPMS at a few of our websites, there is good clarification on all the ideas that are floating around out there. Additionally, I would be happy to help any member of the group with technical questions and training on these items. We just put on a full day training program at UTI in Orlando, for their trainers, as TPMS is the hottest service coming this year. The biggest problem though is training, do not attempt this service without a serious understanding of the technical side. For example, each sensor can have a different torque rating even on the same vehicle. Likewise, all Schrader valves need to be torqued and putting on seals requires special tools. If you miss on even one of these, the liabilities can be incredible. Please check these sites... www.PremierNitrogen.com www.ateqTPMStool.com www.universalTPMSsensor.com In closing I'd like to mention that we would be glad to offer everyone in the ASO group a special discount on any equipment or system. We currently have nitrogen inflators below $1000 and our Road Hazard program is half the price of all the others on the market. GWR wants to support the group members as I ran a shop for years and know what it's like in the real world. Please call me any time, Gary www.GWRauto.com 1(800) 266-4497
  12. Hi Dr. Dave, Sorry for being brief but I'm on the road, I will send more comments over the weekend. I just wanted to mention that one of the easiest ways to increase the net on a ticket is to include value added services, ones that don't take additional physical labor but work in conjunction with an ongoing service. Also, like Chubby says, it's important to attract customer that believe in maintenance as they're usually more willing to spend on a regular basis. As a note, fluid exchanges are now the number one performed maintenance service and the most profitable. Before a customer can be a believer though, you need to strengthen their trust in what you say regarding a service and that it is necessary/cost effective. Some of the easier ways are to show them articles, put up educational posters and offering fluid testing/analysis at every oil change. If for example they see their fluids going from good to bad, over a period of months/years, they will be more willing to change them. When your in house test indicates his "trans fluid" reached the breaking point, the customer understands action is necessary because he personally saw that fluid going through the change stages. You can find more info at www.Fluidtesting.com , a site we set up to show the FRX program (OE Approved by Ford). A few other items that fit into this concept are our oil filter magnets, nitrogen tire inflation and a motor club/road hazard program. Each of these items can be added to existing services with virtually zero labor, and will increase the ticket by $5 to $50. I will try to send more.... hope this gives you some ideas. Gary ( www.GWRauto.com )
  13. partsman

    Nitrogen in tires

    Hi guys, I agree and disagree with the two comments above, I'll try and explain. Yes we need to get paid for what we do and for the added education, administration, etc, etc, that is now needed to service vehicles. Unfortunately I doubt if independents will ever be on a level playing field with dealers or national accounts, so what they have to be is smarter. The old adage of "work with your mind and not your hand" certainly applies here. As to N2 profitability, please take a look at the sales number chart on my Premier website. It shows how, filling only 10% to 20% of your daily car count, can easily produce $500 to $1000 in net profit per month. I can't see how any shop, no matter how big or small the town, could not talk 10% of their customers into Nitrogen service. In most cases, the shop easily sells 50% and more of their base with little effort. Almost everyone has now heard of Nitrogen, we just need to clarify the facts a little and they will be ready to move forward. Actually, regarding xrac's comment, having less N2 competitors in the neighborhood is a good thing. If you do the first service, or even if you don't, those who have nitrogen their tires will need to return to the shop that has a machine to have them topped off. When they come back in, it's an opportunity to inspect and find additional services that might be needed. What a great opportunity! As to being highly profitable, what service takes 3 minutes of actual labor, yet produces $20 to $30 in net profit? Especially one that you can do over and over again, day after day. As to being a big problem until it becomes standard, again I disagree. Base on the feedback we see from cap sales, the nitrogen business is growing at a rate of about 100% to maybe 150% per year nationwide. If a shop waits they will be the looser because the cost of a system is, at this time, is being covered by sales. When all the dealers and national chains have it and the price for the service is free, who will pay for your machine? Remember you will have to buy one to be "in business", when everyone has one. If someone told you 10 years ago that you would be spending $20,000 on a scan system, or $5,000 on an A/C or Trans machine, or $10,000 on a tool box, we would have told them they were crazy. But today we do it, with little though. On this one, think ahead and make it happen when profit margins are their highest. Don't wait for the guys that are sleeping to wake up, it will be more of a burden on your wallet then. One thing I forget was the use of the Motor Club to make sales easier. By throwing in the Road Hazard Protection package, a value of about $100, nitrogen service becomes a better value to your customer. At say $39.95, they are really getting about $150 worth of net benefits. Additionally, if anything happens to the car for the next year, it will be towed back to the shop for free. (See www.PremierMotorClub.com for details) Thanks for your thoughts, I hope this makes sense and that you have the opportunity to investigate N2 service further. Gary ( The chart is at... www.PremierNitrogen.com ) P.S. We actually have many tools and products that I developed or discovered, that quicken labor time, reduce comebacks and or add additional revenue to existing services. If you implement them into the shop, it's like getting paid more for what you do. Feel free to check some of them out when you have the time, they work and used by thousands of shops daily. Hope this info is of value, the items are at... www.GWRauto.com


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