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Posted

I have a 2001 Dodge Ram with a 5.2 that will not start. I have changed out the PCM, coil, plugs, distributor cap, cam sensor, rotor. It is also not showing on the Solus scanner any oil pressure. Replaced the sensor still no luck. Hooked up a gauge to the port shows 45psi cranking. Somethings missing but I don't know what, does anyone have any suggestions? ASD and fuel relays are testing good. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

JOE

Posted

I have a 2001 Dodge Ram with a 5.2 that will not start. I have changed out the PCM, coil, plugs, distributor cap, cam sensor, rotor. It is also not showing on the Solus scanner any oil pressure. Replaced the sensor still no luck. Hooked up a gauge to the port shows 45psi cranking. Somethings missing but I don't know what, does anyone have any suggestions? ASD and fuel relays are testing good. Any help will be greatly appreciated!

JOE

 

Oh boy... Hmmmmmmm,

 

Do you have test equipment? Such as but not limited to:

 

Scan tool? If so which ones...

 

Spark tester?

 

DVOM?

 

Test light?

 

Fuel pressure gauge?

 

Propane enrichment bottle?

 

Labscope?

 

Pressure transducer?

 

Compression gauge?

 

Also do you have an information system to look things up? If so which ones...

 

It's Saturday. I am at the shop are you?

 

Ball in your court. I'll check back later. cool.gif

Posted

Oh boy... Hmmmmmmm,

 

Do you have test equipment? Such as but not limited to:

 

Scan tool? If so which ones... Snap On Solus and Vantage, Auto Ingenuity

 

Spark tester? YES

 

DVOM? NO

 

Test light? Duh...

 

Fuel pressure gauge? YuP

 

Propane enrichment bottle? NO

 

Labscope? VANTAGE

 

Pressure transducer? ?? For the oil I used a manual gauge, if thats what you are asking

 

Compression gauge? YES

 

Also do you have an information system to look things up? If so which ones... ALL DATA

 

It's Saturday. I am at the shop are you? NOPE closed shop for Thanksgiving

 

Jeff- Fuel pressure is good, I have not checked the sync, but will let you know.

 

JOE

Posted (edited)

Oh boy... Hmmmmmmm,

 

Do you have test equipment? Such as but not limited to:

 

Scan tool? If so which ones... Snap On Solus and Vantage, Auto Ingenuity

 

Alright then... When you hooked any of them up on a Chrysler product look to see if you have any codes. If so which ones? I don't like when Chrysler has a code they will put in a value for the PID that has to deal with that code. In other words the value being used is shown and NOT the true value. For example if you had a coolant temp DTC say open circuit. On any other vehicle but Chrysler I would expect to see -40F. With a Chrysler it will look at the IAT and mirror it during start up. Or you might see a value of 115F to maybe 140F.

 

With that said as an example I would like a PID scan. If there is a DTC that PID may not be real. Key on engine off before you even try to start the truck and if you have no DTCs then look at all values and compare to what you would expect to see. Some things would be the temperature. If this is in your shop and it is 60F then the IAT and ECT should be close. Another would be the M.A.P. I would expect something around 29 or 30 kpa. If you see something less I would be concerned.

 

Now if all those are good. Crank the engine. Do you see a rpm reading?

 

Hopefully you get the idea of what I would like to see.

 

Spark tester? YES

 

Good. Did you use it? If so did you have spark every other revolution of the engine. Not just spark when you turned the key on or off.

DVOM? NO

 

In this day and age you need one. I have many. DVOM's come with different options on different model. You need to be able to measure voltage, voltage drops, ohms, amps. and more. I would look into Fluke. If you want a couple different models I would be glad to recommend some depending on the use.

 

Test light? Duh...

 

Should I take that as a yes? If you are poking fun at me just be ready for the kick back. wink.gif

 

Fuel pressure gauge? YuP

Good and I see from your response to Jeff you used it. It's just when you started this request for help you failed to give us all your test results so we could make a decision on a path to try and help you. All I saw was a lot of parts thrown at this and it didn't help. It seemed to me(with all due respect) you didn't do testing, didn't have the equipment to do the testing, didn't have the info to know what you had in front of you, wasn't trained for testing and/or had a tech that was lazy in testing.

 

Do you have anything else you would like to share that you tested?

 

Propane enrichment bottle? NO

 

I would suggest getting one. Great test tool! You could flow a little propane into the intake to see if this would lite up for a second. In place of it some carb cleaner or silicone spray could do the trick. Be CAREFUL!

 

Labscope? VANTAGE

 

It'll do. Have you used it much?

 

Pressure transducer? ?? For the oil I used a manual gauge, if thats what you are asking

 

Nope. I was asking as I use one for doing compression testing. I can actually see the intake and exhaust valves opening during the compression test as well as I use it with the engine running in the spark plug hole for a running compression and snap throttle compression. We don't need it just asked to see if I wanted to see something. No biggie.

 

Compression gauge? YES

 

Good, did you happen to check any of the cylinders? If you didn't I wouldn't head there yet unless you said the engine cranks fast and easy.

 

Also do you have an information system to look things up? If so which ones... ALL DATA

Good. I don't have AllData but at least you have it for looking up specs. Does it cover the year of this truck?

 

It's Saturday. I am at the shop are you? NOPE closed shop for Thanksgiving

 

You posted on Friday and I read it on Saturday. Hope you had a good Thanksgiving! I would of been glad to help over the weekend.

 

Jeff- Fuel pressure is good, I have not checked the sync, but will let you know.

 

JOE

 

Looking forward to you updating with your test results. Hopefully I gave you some things to think about.

 

Spence

Edited by Spence
Posted

Nothing yet to report, have not had a chance to get back on it.

 

BTW I do have a DVOM, didn't recognize the acronym, it is a Fluke.

I also have a Power Probe it is awesome for troubleshooting electrical issues.

 

I really appreciate you checking back

Posted

Nothing yet to report, have not had a chance to get back on it.

 

BTW I do have a DVOM, didn't recognize the acronym, it is a Fluke.

I also have a Power Probe it is awesome for troubleshooting electrical issues.

 

I really appreciate you checking back

 

Thanks for not letting us hang.

 

Kinda figured you had a DVOM. Which model of Fluke?

 

I check in once or twice a day. If you get some test results I would look forward to hearing about them.

 

For starters do you have spark? Not only at the coil wire but at the spark plug too.

 

What is the cranking vacuum reading with the throttle plates closed?

 

Talk to ya later

 

Spence

Posted

OK,

Here is the complete history, I did not include it because I felt it might cloud the issue.

The 5.2 in question has been installed in a 1990 Jeep Wrangler. We rewired the harness to integrate the OBD1 and OBD2 systems, since at the time of this swap no one was making a harness. The Motor is out of a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500 2x4, it was recently rebuilt and has about 50,000 miles on it. It was running fine when we removed it from the donor vehicle.

 

I am not showing any oil pressure on the scanner, but I can manipulate the sensor and prove it works fine. I also installed a manual gauge to verify there was oil pressure.

We have spark verified from the coil to the plug, it will pop off every once in a while like its trying to start, but thats it. If you add a shot of either/carb cleaner it does nothing.

We verified that the signal was coming from the crank sensor and replaced the cam position sensor. Today I am going to check for sync between the two.

I am also going to test for high resistance readings on the ground circuit, to see if our harness has any issues.

Posted

OK,

Here is the complete history, I did not include it because I felt it might cloud the issue.

The 5.2 in question has been installed in a 1990 Jeep Wrangler. We rewired the harness to integrate the OBD1 and OBD2 systems, since at the time of this swap no one was making a harness.

 

Ugh! I don't think it would of clouded the issue at all. If anything it might be some of the issue. I would of preferred you been more up front in the beginning.

 

The Motor is out of a 2001 Dodge Ram 1500 2x4, it was recently rebuilt and has about 50,000 miles on it. It was running fine when we removed it from the donor vehicle.

 

Ok... You have a good engine. That's a good start.

 

I am not showing any oil pressure on the scanner, but I can manipulate the sensor and prove it works fine. I also installed a manual gauge to verify there was oil pressure.

 

Good that you verified oil pressure. You know you are not good to hurt the engine. It's now an electrical issue. It shouldn't keep this from firing up. Do you think it will keep it from starting? If so why?

 

We have spark verified from the coil to the plug, it will pop off every once in a while like its trying to start, but thats it. If you add a shot of either/carb cleaner it does nothing.

 

Have you pulled any of the plugs to see if they are flooded?

 

What is the cranking vacuum with the throttle plates closed. This next step I want is important you follow it if you are going to use rely on the results. Keep cranking it for 15 seconds and what is the vacuum/pressure reading at the end of the 15 second cranking period?

 

We verified that the signal was coming from the crank sensor and replaced the cam position sensor. Today I am going to check for sync between the two.

 

If you had spark your crank signal is working.

 

I am also going to test for high resistance readings on the ground circuit, to see if our harness has any issues.

 

Do you know how to do voltage drop tests? If so check your grounds that way.

 

 

I do a lot of engine swaps. Ones that mate an engine that was never in a vehicle to a different one. Instead of trying to cross between two different fuel/ignition systems we install a stand alone PCM. We then do our own programming. You may want to consider that.

 

In the mean time which computer are you using. The OBD I or the OBD II? Which sensors are being used and are they of the system that the PCM uses?

 

Thanks for the update.

 

Spence

 

 

 

  • 2 weeks later...

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  • Have you checked out Joe's Latest Blog?

         0 comments
      The Technician Shortage Is Our Fault, And It's Time We Own It
      Nearly every day, I hear shop owners complain: "There's a technician shortage. We can't find qualified people. There's no one out there." If that's true, then who's to blame?
      The industry? The schools? The government? I don't know how you feel, but who promised us an endless supply of qualified technicians?
      Another common complaint is that young people do not want to work in the trades. Well, if that were true, then why are other trades such as HVAC, electrical, and plumbing growing? What are they doing that the automotive industry is not? 
      Here's the reality we need to face: We do have a problem, but we shouldn't look for someone or any entity to rescue us. Not the government. Not the trade schools. Not the recruiting companies. No one owes us a workforce. If we want great people in our industry, it's up to us. At some point, we need to own up to the truth: Building a pipeline of qualified technicians is our responsibility.
      In this blog article, I will break down the key reasons we are in this situation today and what we, as an industry, can do to solve the technician shortage. Are you ready to look in the mirror?
      Have We Pushed Technicians Away?
      Let's take a look at flat-rate pay. True flat rate, which pays a technician only for the hours they produce, is a controversial pay plan that emphasizes high production levels and creates a competitive work environment that, if not properly controlled, can lead to increased mistakes and a decline in morale and team spirit. Additionally, the stress and physical demands placed on technicians as they age are not favorable to long-term employee retention. What do we do with technicians as they grow older into their fifties and begin to slow down? 
      I have heard all the arguments and pros and cons of flat-rate pay, and I am not going to judge any pay plan. Let the facts speak for themselves. True flat rate has changed in most areas around the country and has evolved into a pay plan that gives technicians some pay guarantee.
      Many shop owners have learned that team morale, along with the opportunity to earn income, is important to technicians and to the company's long-term success. But let me ask you: how many technicians have left or been pushed out over the years because of the old flat-rate pay system?
      Another issue is the workplace environment. I remember being grateful to be hired as a young technician at a local repair shop. While very thankful, the work environment was not ideal. The shop owner kept the bay doors open year-round (I am from New York) unless it rained or snowed. He felt that if the bay doors were closed, customers might think we were closed for business. We had no heat and no hot water. Many of the jobs were done outside, year-round,  in all types of weather. The starting pay was minimum wage, with no benefits, sick days, or vacation pay. 
      Now, again, I need to point out that I was truly grateful for the opportunity this shop owner gave me. I learned a lot working there, and the experience was pivotal in my career. But looking back, I wonder how many people were discouraged by these working conditions?
      While the physical demands of the repair workplace are daunting, perhaps even more critical is the culture. Too many of my generation shop owners preached the mindset of "my way or the highway." We were the business owners, after all. We started our companies, took all the risks, and provided jobs. Why shouldn't we be the ones to set the ground rules our way?   
      Many of us found over the years that the "my way or the highway" mentality was a sure way to isolate employees and make them more likely to look over the fence for greener grass. In other words, it led many technicians to seek employment elsewhere, where they felt they could be appreciated and recognized for their hard work. The issue, however, was that there wasn't much green grass around. Disappointment after disappointment, bouncing from repair to repair shop, eventually led to despair. So, I ask you: were workplace conditions a contributing factor in today's technician shortage?
      Another factor that we are all well aware of is the complexity of the modern automobile. When I started, the work was mostly physical, and you were required to master essentially three vehicle models: General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler. Let's fast-forward to today. The evolution of automotive technology, along with the extensive training and tools required, has outpaced the typical technician's pay compensation, with no clear career path. Again, leading to frustration and insecurity about the future.
      Here is the bottom line: people don't leave their job; they leave their experience. We must do a better job. 
      The News Isn't all Bad; Your Next Steps to Fix the Technician Shortage
      To fix the technician shortage, it will take a combined effort from everyone in the automotive industry, particularly automotive shop owners. Shop owners are in the perfect position to make the greatest impact, not only on their businesses but also on the future automotive workforce.
      First, shop owners must become better leaders and understand that their ultimate success is directly dependent on the people they assemble around them. Any shop owner who mistakenly believes they can build an empire solely on their abilities is destined for serious disappointment. Business owners who think like this will eventually plateau. Without the collective contributions from a team of qualified people, your business will stall; it will not continue to grow.
      Create a workplace that attracts top talent: a clean, professional, well-equipped facility designed to support productivity, teamwork, and a career, not just a job. Build a great reputation in your community by getting involved locally. Become the auto repair shop that people take notice of as "the" place to work.
      Next, shop owners must become more financially knowledgeable. Knowing your numbers and what you need to achieve for a strong bottom-line profit is essential to paying technicians the money they need and deserve. Profit will also allow you to compete with other trade industries by providing a benefits package that has real take-home value and security.
      When it comes to culture, this is where the rubber hits the road. People crave recognition, praise, and a sense of purpose. Despite what you hear, people are not just money-motivated. Once people feel secure in their financial situation, retaining and motivating technicians can only be achieved by connecting with them on an emotional level. You cannot show enough appreciation. Give out praise for a job well done as if your business depended on it, because it does.
      As technicians age, we need to have a place for them. Expecting a 58-year-old to perform like a 35-year-old is unrealistic. We need to be more focused on career pathing. Provide training, skill development, and coaching to develop leaders and mentors within our older workforce. While their bodies may have slowed, the knowledge they have gained is priceless. 
      Our future is dependent on young people entering our industry. We need to give more young people opportunities. Every shop owner across the country should consider hiring an apprentice, then build an apprentice training plan and career path for them. If every shop did this, we could solve the technician shortage within five years. Get involved with the trade schools and high schools in your area. Look into the NAPA Apprenticeship Program. Don't sit on your hands with this one. Do it today.
      Lastly, don't get left behind. Commit to ongoing training for all your employees. Keep up to date with tools and equipment tailored to your business model. Don't try to be all things to all people and all vehicles. Identify your core profile customer and the vehicles they drive, and become an expert on those vehicles and the services you offer.
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