Junior

We got it shut and she claims she is returning to get some work. I think this will all work out well.

That is good to hear

A customer came in with a 2002 Mercedes C230 and my "C" mechanic took it for a test drive. For some reason (he says accidentally) he hit the sun roof and the interior part opened and will not close. The customer tells us that it was broken when she bought the car and she took it some where to have them put it back and she has not messed with it since them. I feel that we should fix it but my head mechanic says he will not mess with it because he has no experience with it. I can tell him to do it anyway but don't want to end up in a bigger mess than I am in right now. I would like to hear how you guys have dealt with situations like that.

This depends heavily on what the customer came in for and what you sold them/how you position your services.

If they were in for an oil change and you're the kind of shop that just changes the oil with whatever barrel you have and nothing else like a quick change place does then the customer should expect that you are doing only that and nothing else. In this case I think you owe them to shut the roof.

If you were doing a complete service per the manufacturer's specification such as Mercedes service B and the customer knows this. You sell your service as a complete service and inspection, follow factory service intervals and use appropriate materials as well as charge the customer accordingly. In this case you have discovered a problem that requires a proper repair, part of the service is discovering these problems in the shop before the customer gets stuck on the road with them. If the customer declines the proper repair they should expect to pay straight time to close the roof, get the cabin weather tight and disable the roof from being able to open again accidentally.

If the second scenario is the case the problem with the sunroof should have been discovered with the customer interview. If the customer failed to disclose that kind of problem it is clearly their negligence and again should expect to pay for repair.

I'm gonna guess like most of us you're operation is somewhere in the middle. If you want to keep a good relationship with the customer I'd quote the proper repair, offer to close the roof and disable it at time or maybe a reduced rate. If you discount them spell it out on the invoice so they understand what they are getting and make SURE the roof is disabled so it can not happen to them or someone else.

Or you could eat the whole thing and chalk it up to a learning experience

Ever take a moment to consider BMW advertises the longest oil change intervals in the industry and also is the only manufacturer to train techs in walnut blasting away carbon deposits? Food for thought.

Its a direct injection issue though, BMW just admits the problem. VW/Audi engines are WAYYYY worse and they don't admit its a problem ,they blame it on poor fuel quality. Which makes perfect sense since since the part effected doesn't come in contact with any fuel ever

Not really related... but I saw this on my FB page.... ridiculous...I guess it would work, but I'd bet you have a better chance of burning down the shop.

 

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-coolest-possible-way-to-clean-out-a-tdi-intake-manifold/

I used to do that to clean VW TDI manifolds, they are cheap enough new now that its not even worth the time.

On another note, the products like BG and valvoline chemical cleaners might be ok if you sold them as regular preventative maintenance, but if you have a rough cold idle and a misfires already that stuff is not gonna work. Plus I don't want that huge chunk of carbon coming off and being smacked up in the cylinder. Or have it hold a valve open and have it tap the piston. That service might have you buying an engine. The only fix is the right fix, mechanical removal and inspection.

We use walnut blasting

What machine do you use? Do you have a way to contain it to the intake port?

Its time to invest in some new tools or methods for intake valve cleaning on direct injected engines. Using picks and small brushes just doesn't cut it. The process takes way to long. We do plenty enough VW/Audi work alone to make it worth while to have a special machine for this. I've heard of people using soda or shell blasting. Is there are tool or method out there that can use this process and contain it to the intake port without getting material everywhere?

What do you guys do?

Thanks!!

Yup, I had an insurance company come in just last week and try this with me. I got lucky and I left the invoice in my toolbox, so when the adjuster asked to see it, I really couldn't find it (wasn't in the folder where I usually put my receipts). I too was completely caught off guard. Looking back, it really pisses me off people think they can do that in our industry. They bring their cars to us because they have no clue what is wrong with them or how to fix it, but then expect us to fix their cars for next to nothing.

 

Times like that is where you really just want to tell them to GTFO! But you don't, you smile, contain your anger, and give them a response similar to what others have provided here.

Insurance company's don't ask for the invoice to check the price, they don't care, they understand how the industry works. They ask for the invoice to ensure you actually bought a part they can not see when doing a supplement. If the adjuster only thought XYZ was bad and you also replaced ABC they want to make sure you actually did it and didn't just say you did. Like I said, they understand the industry.

On the OP's topic, as others have said, the answer to the customer is just no. Politely no, bus still no.

We send Txt messages to customers via google voice when vehicles are ready, been doing that for probably 5 years now. I plan to extend it to confirming appointments in the future but we currently don't have a process for that. I wouldn't expect to ever use it for mass marketing. In the future it will be used to maintenance reminders but i need to change software to get there. A process that has been challenging.

This is what i should have done.

 

What should I do at the stage i am at now.

Honestly the customer is just angry that they ruined their own engine and is trying to pass the blame. They don't want to be the idiot so you're stuck being the bad guy. Some people just need to blame someone else for everything. I don't know about the laws in your state but here in NY worst case is a DMV inspector investigates from the consumer protection division, they beat you up about your paperwork and waste your time. Its clear you didn't destroy the engine, doubt even a heavily customer favorable investigator would put that on you.

If the customer is well established we will do the tough ones, just did and F150 manifold last week for a good customer. For jobs like that we tell them its just what time it takes, that way we don't loose out. Quote them double the book time, make sure they understand the situation with the repair, when you come in at less than double they are prepared for the worst and you didn't loose. Did you win? Not really, a few jobs I could have done in half of book time would have been better but I made a customer happy, didn't loose my shirt and didn't have to send them somewhere else.

Now if that guy came in off the street I'd quote him the same and can grantee I won't get the job. They usually come back after someone else charged them close to what I actually quoted.

When you give a price over the phone you encourage mindless price shopping. Get them in to see what they really need. I quote tires and oil changes, they also get "the lowest price tire is not the one I prefer to put on your car." Or "cheap oil is too expensive we put the right stuff in. We have free Starbucks coffee on Thursday I can squeeze you in at 8:15"

 

The folks that just want the cheapest I don't really want in my garage. Maybe when its been snowing for a week and we're cleaning the oil drains but even then its a toss up.

Totally agree with this, talk to them about the root complaint and get them in the shop to look at it and have a conversation about how they maintain and repair the vehicle. That's how you create a good relationship with the customer.

I'll let the other guys nickle and dime it, I have no interest in that.

Honestly I would have stopped once the pan was off, no way that engine was gonna be good, that one gets pushed out of the bay. Note condition of vehicle on the WO when it comes in and have the customer sign it. That's the best way to cover yourself, plus its the law here in NY

so I got version 3.48 to work, BMW didn't include a few files that were part of earlier version in these distributions. Software works and vehicle is fixed. I used to use the old BMW standard tools to code modules but they are no longer supported on F series and I didn't want to get into E-sys when there was a properly supported BMW solution with ISTA. Long story short it works but bmwtechinfo tech support is worthless.

Is anyone using ISTA? If you are, what version and have you had any trouble. I've spent days now with BMW support in Germany on getting this software to work. I've installed in on multiple different machines and had no luck. In version 3.48 I can't scroll through any documents, on version 3.49 (latest) all the documents are blank so you can't do anything. Support is hopeless. Am I the bad egg or is this common?

Spent a bunch of time with Dayco rep and engineers on the phone yesterday. They claim an NTN tensioner in the box, which is OE, got a new tensioner from Subaru, it is NTN, so is the Dayco one, but they are clearly different parts, different castings and everything. I can only assume NTN changed something in production or they make a different part for aftermarket. The other pulleys that come in the kit are GMB and they are identical to OE. We put OE tensioners on in place of failed ones and all is well, we got lucky with the motor that went out of time, thankfully Subaru's can be out quite a bit before interference.

I have mixed feelings about the product now, this is the only timing component failure we've seen. We switched over to Dayco from Gates only about a year ago. I'm not ready to say I won't use Dayco timing kits but I will certainly scrutinize kit components before install.

You also need to take a look at the brake work your techs are doing. One of the biggest no no's I've seen is pad ends being ground down to fit in the brackets and abutment hardware, even by well know shops. I assume you're in a salt zone as I am and one of the problems I see on a daily basis is rust buildup behind the hardware which starts to pinch the pads and sticks them in the brackets. Hardware needs to be removed and all rust cleaned off the brackets. I have several methods but my favorite is to use the sand blast cabinet. Once the rust is gone I treat that surface, grease it and install new hardware and then the pads will fit perfect, not too tight and not too loose. I assume you're greasing the pad ends and or abutment hardware, glide pins as well as the caliper piston end and opposite side contact areas. In the four years I've owned my shop I have never had a brake job come back for squealing, and I do a crap ton of brake work.

 

 

Scotty hit the nail on the head. If you are having that kind return rate your techs are not doing the job right. Brake rotors need to be replaced or machined on every job, piston travel checked, and if you can't move the pads in the brackets with pinky pressure there is something wrong. Pads should never be ground down, if they stick its a bracket problem. Every brake job should be test driven. If you are using any decent brand aftermarket pad you will be ok. Most warehouses carry a cheap rotor/pad line avoid it. Using brands like Wagner, Textar, Akebono, Jurid, Centric, Sebro ect will net you great performance. Remember even the most basic brake job is at least 40 mins or more for a top tech. That's why the labor guide gives you an hour an a half or better for most jobs. If techs are doing jobs in 20 mins they are not doing the job.

On this note, does anyone know for certain how many degrees the camshaft can be out before valve to piston contact on an EJ253 engine?

Just ran into a serious issue that I want to give you guys the heads up on before it costs you a big headache. The last two Subaru timing belt jobs we did used Dayco kit, the tensioner bearing failed. The first one was after 39 miles, the second one only lasted 19 miles. These were sourced through Advance. Looks like the second one may have cost the engine.

I'm waiting to hear back on what happened in the manufacturing process that caused the failure. We have installed tons of these kits with no troubles and have two failures in a row now, something has gone sour.

Save yourself the headache, skip the tensioner or install OE on this one. Will post back with more details once I get an answer.

What trade shows or conferences do you attend if any? ASO is a great way to interact with other shop owners but nothing beats a handshake and a conversation. The opportunity to meet vendors, tool manufacturers ect is great.

There is a thread on Automechanika http://www.autoshopowner.com/topic/9664-automechanika-show-in-chicago-april-2015/

Is it worth the trip to Chicago?

There is also SEMA and AAPEX in Vegas, I've never been to either. What about smaller regional shows, specifically in the Northeast?

In the long run, 10-15 years out I think the overall model of this industry will change significantly. Shops that stay ahead of the trend will prosper, those that don't will fight each other for the scraps. There is no money in not completely understanding how a system works and having the tools to properly diagnose and repair it. I think the industry is seeing this trend already. We do plenty of Hybrid work, we are the only shop that isn't a dealer around here that does complete HV rebuilds and replacements. We also invest heavily in specialty tools to service everything. As a result we get a lot of work from other shops that can't figure something out, even work from local dealers comes our way now and then (two in the shop right now).

The swap parts & change oil model is a fading one. In the long term, say 20 years out I believe even retail places such as Advanced, Autozone ect will need to rethink their business model as most people won't be able to do any repairs on their own vehicle or those repairs will be far to costly not properly diagnosed. As we know the later already happens.

Diagnostic tools are changing, the move of scan tools & repair data to work exclusively through J2534 and its successors is going to continue. Only shops willing to subscribe to those services and make the best use of the investment will continue to prosper.

Those are my thoughts, loosely put together.

I agree entirely will all the above statements. Is any lobbying organization looking for stricter Inspection standards? We should all write our Assembly representatives and let them know our thoughts. Increasing tire wear and adding ball joints is a big issue for me. I feel as if I'm doing someone a disservice passing them on NYS Inspection in a snow storm with just 2/32" tread depth and giving them a piece of paper from the State telling them their car is safe for another year.

In a way it is off subject but I had to tell a customer no today. This afternoon I got a call from my dentist's office. There are within walking distance and some of them bring their cars to me including the dentist. Alexa explained that a gentlemen who had been in their office had a car smoking in the parking lot and wondered if I could help him. We were busy but I told her I would try. In a few minutes the guy walked in obviously distraught. He thought he had blow a hose. I told him to give it a while for the car to cool down and we would try to start it and bring it over. After about an hour I gave one of my guys his keys and asked him to see if he could bring it over. My two guys came back a few minutes later and said that there was no way they wanted to sit down INSIDE this vehicle. It was piled full of trash even with the rear window glass and the guy had a wood 2"x4" propped in the center of the car to keep the trash from falling on him. They said the trash and the smell were unreal and unsanitary to the highest degree. Based upon things I heard this guy say in the office and based upon what my guys told me I decided to punt. As kindly as I could I told the gentleman that there was no way we could work on the car in the condition it was in. Obviously he was mentally ill because he talked about having no money to fix his car but he also told me he was feeding 30 cats.

kinda off topic but we used to have a customer just like this. eventually it got so bad that we had to say no. when she passed I think the SPCA recovered 50+ cats from her falling down house.

on the same subject we will turn down people who are unhealthily not sanitary and I personally refuse to work on a vehicle with excessive patchouli oil smell

We almost never take walk ins (flats and bulb or battery changes are the exception). We book everything by appointment usually at least two days out. If a customer asks if they can get in for xyz I don't say no but instead offer to make them an appointment. I've found its a lot about the approach. Hopefully in the future software will helps us manage this problem better and even more to the liking of the customer. So far it works out pretty well, we do occasionally have someone go elsewhere for something like an oil change or snow tires when the artic vortex is hitting but most customers are smart enough to schedule or even like the idea that we are never sitting around waiting for work.

Bill proposed in the state Assembly to change NYS Inspections to every 2 years. http://assembly.state.ny.us/leg/?default_fld=&bn=A06200&term=2015&Summary=Y&Memo=Y&Text=Y

I think ball joints need to be added to safety and tire tread depth should fail sooner. Annual inspections are good. Two of the other local shops here don't do Inspections so we see their cars usually just for inspections. Its insane how many of them fail.

Your thoughts?

That is a pretty interesting page, I'm going to do a little more reading there when I get time. We do a lot of service on hybrids especially Prius, including rebuilding Gen1 batteries with gen2 cells and civic/insight IMA pack rebuilds. It's pretty good business and there is no one else in the area doing it. I've only seen one trans failure on a Prius and that was due to the HV motor overheating so they are quite bulletproof.

Looks like another opportunity to sell, I mean the tires low for a reason right? just putting air in the tire could open you up legal issues, like the tire has a nail or glass in it they leave your shop with it like that and the tire blows out and kills someone, the owner of the car states he was just at your shop and you just filled it with "air" (if he's still alive). If he doesn't want it looked at or fixed send him on his way. Law or no law I'd rather deal with fighting the fine from the state than a blood thirsty ambulance chasing attorney.

That's being a little to paranoid, an attorney would have to prove gross negligence on your part in order to have any type of case. If you aired up a tire, made a recommendation to put the spare on or replace the tire and the customer refused the service you have performed your duty. If you refused to air the tire despite being required to by law to do so you will would easily be held negligent as it fits the legal description perfectly.

As for an opportunity to sell, most of the time the tire is only down a few psi, just enough to set the TPMS light off, usually its because they went to a quick change oil place that never checked/adjusted and rotated the tires, that or its turning to winter and the weather is colder.